Union members to vote on American deal
 

American Airlines pilots’ union members to vote on new labor deal | LeveragedLoan.com

board approves in principle...

American Airlines pilots’ union members to vote on new labor deal | LeveragedLoan.com

Again APA will send a list of "agreements in priciple" to the membership instead of a finalized contract. How many times will the AA pilots vote to accept a less than finished deal? Management has handed the APA and its pilots another promise not a contract. Will there be another vote to ratify the CONTRACT?

The contract language of the TA is posted on the APA web page.

To paraphrase APA leadership - "I believe we've played this hand out as much as it can be done." If this thing passes, we will forever wonder if that is truly the case.

I'm leaning towards a NO vote. I suspect the 13.5% stake is going to sucker people in.

All I know at the moment is that our December bid sheet sucked, with a large number of lines at 16, 17, or more days on. As a first year FO in 1992, I was easily holding 12 day lines worth 78 hours.

ForeverFO

What are your reasons for a no vote?

I wasn't asked but,

50 % code share. Unlimited CS with Alaska (except LAX)
Group 1 (E-190 CA) pay $108 hr.
4%/2%/2% raises? The 4% does not make up for loss of night pay.
Regional feed to 65% of NB fleet count
NB 2012 AA is 487 hulls NB fleet 2016 567
can exceed June 1 -Jan 1 at 110% that is regional count can be 110%
Regional OTHER CS to 50% asm's

E170 9/60
E 175 8/72 Ding Ding Ding pull 4 seats out.
E-190 11/88 exceed 99 need extra FA

UAL scope has UAX limit 900nm
76 seats max 255 hulls the >255 to 325 req no more than 102 70 seaters


My A fund pension is frozen. My B-fund will be casshed out on a somewhat down market, most of it has been sold already. AA want to put 14 % into my 401K but UAL has 16.5%

My union and many pilots will begin telling me that the only way to get rid of this management is to vote YES to this poor TA.

I don't believe that.

For all you non-AA pilots, our F/A's have a ME TOO clause. Persoanally NOT MY PROBLEM.

Many pilots tired of NO pay protection will vote YES.

Me i'm a NO!

More later.

The A fund being frozen and B fund being cashed out is a non issue. Those plans are finished as of the 1 Nov pay date.
The TA has a 14% contribution going into a 401k. That is an issue that you can vote on.

7576FO spoke well. I need to do more study, but my impression so far is that this is the LBFO microwaved, with a little seasoning sprinkled on top. The main course remains the same.

I think we can do better. I am also convinced that the "talks" that the company so eagerly desired last month was a sham, with no real desire to improve on the LBFO.

These two are what could be the most serious, incurring many job-losses over time:

* 50 % code share. Unlimited CS with Alaska & Hawaiian (except LAX)

* Regional feed to 65% of NB fleet count

Hopefully the "NO" voters listened to the telecon yesterday.
A rejected TA puts the merger And Equity Stake at a huge risk
Furlough protection to last active FO
Scope and Code share agreements defended and explained well

I have mouths to feed and a mortgage to pay, I think turning this TA down
would be a huge mistake, I am a YES

This thread is mislabeled: should be American pilots vote NO again. Because h3ll no isn't on the ballot.

Stop the effing world, we have got ourself a pilot with kids and a mortgage.

I heard enough of the town hall conference to vote no. It's just another spin from the same spinmeisters concerned with their temporary chunk of change like you. In fact, it's virtually the same deal as before with a sprinkle of sugar, but not on anything important. At least they confirmed Eagle can get Airbuses under this deal and I expect they will. I'll laugh at the dopes who voted yes, when they do.

Oh....and did I say I'm voting no ?

I am.

Everyone who voted yes for the first turd will vote for this one with peanuts. APA is counting on swaying enough of those who didn't to get just over 50%. Appears most yes voters are more senior and couldn't care less about scope as long as they get theirs. Most of ORD will vote for it and virtually ALL of DFW.

Sad, but predictable.

Airlinii Pilotus is always predictable.

What is it about DFW and ORD? I heard the same at Eagle 99% no in NYC and LAX and 99% yes in DFW and ORD. Same company right?

Airbuses at Eagle how?

Lower limit on seats and weights for regional feed aircraft
–76 seats, 86,000 lb. limit matches agreements at Delta and United


"I want to make clear that this is not a fantasy game of Dungeons and Dragons or Call of Duty. We are not on a fictional crusade to slay a mythical dragon or gun down the opposition. This is not a remake of “Braveheart.” This is our future, and it is imperative that you understand that we currently hold that future in our hands."

I belive when most people refer to Eagle operating Airbuses and other aircraft of that size they are refering to the Executive certificate. In the late 90's AMR combined all their feeders into American Eagle holdings and under that holding company they kept two out of four certificate. Simmons now known as American Eagle Airlines (currently operating jets) and Executive Airlines this is where the ATRs are assigned to. All of the ATRs are scheduled to be returned by 1st qt 2013. The executive certificate is worth a lot of money do to its capabilities, that certificate is approved for over water opearations, GPS and most importantly international. That certificate can operate from North American all the way to South America and anywhere in between. People are concerned about this because if American spins off Eagle to the shareholders then American Eagle Holdings will no longer be controlled or control AMR, the American Eagle certificate can be a feeder for American Airlines but Executive Airlines could get larger airplanes and be a new code share partner with a certificate that is more capable than any if the LCC outhere to include Southwest (I am only refering to what the certificate is certified for). This is what I belive people refer to as Eagle getting Airbuses and if not people need to pay attention because we this is a very realist scenario if management was going to do it.

What is exactly correct. The majority of senior pilots either think this wont happen or really don't care. Most of the junior pilots do. In APA's recent teleconference they admitted this possibility, but are so terrified of the BK process to fight it. It is even described in the TA scope language as the "New Entrant Carrier".

It's been AMR's goal to turn AA into a smaller International and long-range domestic carrier and it sounds like its about to happen. I think Eagle and others will take over a lot of the current domestic.

When's the vote?

Dec. 7 I'm a NO!

On our message board many are calling No voters "emotional" again.

I just cannot give that much on Scope.

AMR and the media portray this as a 4% raise, 2% raise the next year, 2% raise the next year then industry standard the 4th year of this 6 year deal.
So that NEVER NEVER NEVER could we AA pilots raise the bar like DAL UAL and SWA (UAL + 3% or DAL + 3%). Yet the loss of night pay, the loss of Int'l override pay on reserve (if you don't fly on reserve you don't get int'l override pay of CA $6 hr and FO $4.00 hr) For me becomes a small pay cut.

If this passes even though i'm voting NO, I would have to apologize for AA pilots never able to raise the bar for our fellow aviators(trix's) at the other majors.

We have never raised the bar in my career. For that i'm truly sorry.

I have lots of fight in me! I will fight.

Thanks you to the pilots of United Airlines and the pilots of Delta Airlines for standing firm and raising the bar. I regret that my compatriots at AA seem to not want to fight for what is rightfully all of our profession.

This contract would if passed with it's subjective words, would allow only a ISC never an ILC for the next decade.

7576FO

The larger aircraft can be aquired by another carrier via codesharing. The worry is that it will be AE once they are sold and become independant. Our President is not in touch with a large portion of the membership and thus the reason for his offensive PR statements.

You're on the outside looking in, so it's understandable you have little clue to what is happening here.

You already gave on scope -- the judge agreed with the company's 1113(c) motion and rejected our contract. From here on out, the company can do pretty much whatever they want on scope unless we ratify a contract that says otherwise. The scope in the TA is far from perfect, but it's leaps and bounds beyond the term sheet and in the ballpark of UAL/DAL. Voting no is essentially voting yes to no scope.

Disagree. Your assumptions above are based on AMR never needing a CBA again and they do. I believe we will have the chance to negotiate again, but when and with who is the question. Still voting no.

"Raising the bar" ??? Give me a break. Not only have the AA pilots failed, so have all pilots in our industry today. The old guard that is now leaving after 30 plus years should be held responsible for allowing the destruction of the airline pilot profession in the U.S. Those who are now coming up through the ranks must also bear responsibility for being so desperate and willing to accept crumbs for their efforts. Actually the real culprits in this sad story are the "associations" and those that so foolishly and blindly follow their lead. If the leaders of our profession had simply held the line, maintaining the purchasing power of our predecessors a narrow body captain would be earning approximately $290k for 75 hours per month. Oh there are those who shriek, “Everybody has taken cuts in every industry over the last few decades.” Really? Let’s see if any of you can tell me what has happened to executive compensation or government workers pay over the same time period? History really is a “B”, isn’t it?

why not yes
 

I would like to ask the no voters a couple questions.

1. What do you expect to happen "reality" not dreamworld if the TA is rejected?
A. Years of term sheet, recalls cancelled, stagnation in all aspects and no merger, no equity payout.
B. AMR to give whatever it is you want and you still get everything already on the plate.

2. Is there anything that would change your mind?

3. Have you listened to the telecon or have all of your questions, doubts or concerns answered before you vote.

1. Two answers offered are extremes. Neither is likely. We will just remain in "uncharted territory" and that is not where the UCC wants to be to get the most money from this process.

2. A better future than what this TA offers.

3. Yes. My questions were answered confirming my suspicions, I now have no doubt about what the TA means and no concern that voting against it is the correct thing to do.

"kc".......as in Kansas City ?

You're not one of those senior Ex-TWA captains just looking to cash-in before you bail, are you ? :rolleyes:

I listened to the teleconference. 2 things on scope. "Manage or direct" Eagle or New Entrant and they are limited. I believe they can easily find a way around that.

I'm a NO based on scope alone.

Any word on the 13.5% fairy dust equity stake?

The APA mailer explaining how this TA is 0.002% different from the LBFO didn't mention anything.

I feel bereft of any meaningful information.

I've been asked by many "What's your plan if it doesn't pass?" They think i'm emotional. I'm not really. I'm calm. Based upon this scope, I cannot vote YES.
My humble opinion is they could make better changes to scope to assure us they won't turn Eagle or the spin off into a domestic beheamoth. Like UAL has a 900nm leg length with UAX. Something like that.

American Eagle CRJ-700

LAX-IAH = 1,200nm
ORD-SLC = 1086nm
ORD-ELP = 1070nm
LAX-OKC = 1,036 nm
ORD-ABQ = 980nm
ORD-SAT = 900nm
LGA-MSP = 887nm
ORD-AUS = 850nm
ORD-IAH = 806nm
ORD-DEN = 773nm
LAX-DEN = 750nm
ORD-MSY = 728nm

American Eagle ERJ

LGA-XNA = 997nm
MIA-PIT = 880nm

Here is just a few that I can think on top of my head! They won't turn Eagle into a behemoth, they already have... And lets not forget the guys that wear blue shirts who carry a substantial number of your passengers, like BOS-DFW & JFK-BOS. You guys have fought hard and we commend you for it but the senior pilots are about to sell the junior guys down the river so that AMR can exit bankruptcy and they can make retirement plans and leave us a pile of sh!t to deal with and a COE who wants to outsource everything he gets his hands on!

"Tom Horton is no friend of labor. His tenure at AT&T is highlighted by the outsourcing of 4,600 overseas. It was only after Horton left AT&T and returned to AMR that the CWA was able to return 2,000 of those jobs to the U.S. Why this matters is because Horton was the proponent behind joint business initiatives with British Airways and Iberia and the code-share with JetBlue"

We Want Our Money Back !!! | Q & A

"From 1998 to 2000, he was vice president responsible for the airline’s Europe business, based in London"

Thomas Horton - Forbes

"We appreciate Tom agreeing to take on this role at this time. He worked hand-in-glove in alliance matters with Gerard Arpey during Gerard's period of tenure as oneworld Chairman and has played a pivotal role in strengthening our alliance through the significant deepening of cooperation between American and so many of our other member airlines in recent years.
PR Newswire (http://s.tt/1sil4)"

American Airlines' Tom Horton Elected oneworld Chairman -- NEW YORK, Dec. 15 2011 /PRNewswire/ --

"As AT&T’s chief financial officer, he led the review of options culminating with a 2005 takeover by SBC Communications Corp."

AMR Insider Horton Brings Deal-Making History at AT&T to Airline CEO Role - Bloomberg

You know what this man is here to do, there might be smoke and mirrors, but you know what he tells you in the Jerwires are pure lies and he is here to drive the unions to the ground and cash in. It is what he has done everywhere else he has been in.

It's crazy how CEOs bounce from the top of one to the top of another

It's the business-world's "Good ol' Boyz" club. Once you have the secret handshake, the cigars, and the key to the executive bathroom, you've entered their world.

You may proceed on your merry way, doing relatively little in terms of actually being a productive worker, but pocketing millions at various companies, while generally screwing with the workers.

What is first year pay in the new TA?

Thanks What! So <900nm quite a bit less.

I was thinking more on the lines of E 175 1800nm and E 175 LR 2100 nm.

I am a Yes.

Read the settlement letter if you want to see it in black and white.

It says it will pay APA 5 million for legal fees, and shall give APA 13.5% equity stake. How this 13.5% will be doled out to the membership has not been discussed by the Union(at least I have not heard of anything ).

Equity stake distribution to members is still TBD by APA BOD. It's complicated - Lots of tax and legal implications to consider.

I read it a bit more and I think it's going to pass. I know you're on your quest to get industry standard, but you guys have to swallow that pill and realize you're not the top dog anymore. Industry standard would be great for a while, but it would send you right back into bankruptcy (or the threat of bankruptcy).

American is a great airline, but it can't compete with Delta or United. If the merger doesn't happen (which I personally think it won't) you'll be competing with Us Airways, Alaska, Hawaiian, ect for the teet of the DOT. I have no doubt you'll get awarded some new routes, but it'll be a while (20 years) before you could organically grow to the size of Delta or United.

As I said before, it's a hard pill to swallow. You guys deserve industry standard; you just don't deserve what will happen if you get it.

So you're saying pilot pay will BK AA again? I don't think so.