Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   American (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/american/)
-   -   An important video for AMR/LCC pilots (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/american/71945-important-video-amr-lcc-pilots.html)

Wiskey Driver 12-27-2012 07:26 PM


Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1319492)
Sounds like you have a PLAN......Just one thing, how do you propose to effectively compete in the NEW "Global arena" against the emerging Titans such as Delta and United???
Size does matter when effectively competing in the NEW norm...
......And NO, growing AA's network, tomb-stone strategy, by 20% will do nothing more than accelerate AA's demise..

Here's a person that fully understands the magnitude of the situation for which AMR currently finds itself.

WD at AWA

flybywire44 12-27-2012 07:58 PM


Originally Posted by Imapilot2 (Post 1319362)
AA pilots, this forum here exposes the virus you will be subjected to, times ten!, in a merger with US Air. Your pay scale out of BK is way above theirs, your ac orders are huge(actually 100 MORE planes than they even own), none of your bases will change, thousands of retirements ahead and you don't have to be the largest in the world to be stable and profitable. Given all this, why in the heII would an AA pilot want to bet the farm on a merger with a group that is eating itself alive from the inside? IMO AA pilots would be far better off to stay as far away from the US Air mess as possible.

US Airways pilots as a whole are much more laid back than this forum represents.

The few bad eggs here are the squeakiest wheels.

cactusmike 12-27-2012 09:41 PM

The east west bickering will go away after a merger that subordinates both groups to the back of the bus. If ALPA had not been tossed and the SLI had been implemented then everyone except a few would have gotten over their mad years ago and we would be on our second joint contract by now. I am firmly convinced of this.

R57, you ask if I feel this way because we came out so much better under the Nicolau. I ask you, who came out better? I didn't, I lost 18 percent seniority on the Nicolau. Our top guys did even worse. But as I have said, it doesn't matter what I feel about it, we were going to abide by whatever decision came out. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We can all claim whatever we want after the fact, so, again, this is all meaningless. Did we get a windfall because we were not stapled according to date of hire? I don't think so, we kept the seats and jobs were brought to the merger until Doug took them away.

I think this will go to arbitration because that will be the only way people will be able to deflect blame onto another entity. You brought up the concept of a panel. That's a fine idea, but they should be professional arbitrators. It will be interesting to see how the UCAL SLI is done. There is a disparity in the length of service in the seniority lists from both. How an arbitrator handles that will be illuminating.

If you are talking to Hummel you better get him to start getting serious about dropping the DOH stance. The company sent a letter to the NMB stating that USAPA will not get off the DOH position and thus no negotiations can succeed since the present seniority proposal from USAPA is a DFR. The company will not move from their position until a seniority list that looks, acts and quacks like the Nicolau is used. This DOH position will get USAPA shut out from the merger process as well. I'm not saying the Nicolau list will be presented by LCC, I don't know that for certain, but the company is very aware of the legal ramifications of not using that list, or something very close to it.

cactiboss 12-27-2012 10:04 PM


Originally Posted by cactusmike (Post 1319535)
The company sent a letter to the NMB stating that USAPA will not get off the DOH position and thus no negotiations can succeed since the present seniority proposal from USAPA is a DFR.

And in response the NMB said usapa is done and parked indefinatelly. Of course usapa hasn't told their members this, so much for the most transparent union ever.

Enterprise 12-28-2012 04:43 AM


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319513)
Here's a person that fully understands the magnitude of the situation for which AMR currently finds itself.

Actually, that is a person who is regurgitating talking points from APA union officials that are trying to save face.

There is nothing US Airways has that can fill any glaring network deficiencies at AA. Having a CLT hub does nothing to get us the much needed slots at JFK. Having a PHX hub does nothing to bolster a Pacific route network.

What else does US Airways do for AA? Increase yields? AA already leads UAL and DAL for the year (sans the 3Q "issue" we had), and that is before employee concession even kick in. More "revenue?" The last time AA led the industry in revenue, we led the industry in losses. "Synergies?" What are they? Is someone now going to book off DAL so they can connect through our new LAS "synergy" hub?

If someone wants to promote this merger for all of the wonderful things it brings, than you had better be prepared to start getting specific. Talking about vague things like "more revenue", and "growth", and "synergies" just doesn't cut it. What are the new routes going to be? How are we going to grow in critical markets like NYC? Will the pilots of this newly merged airline going to be flying Pacific routes? If so, what are the new routes? How are these new routes possible now and they were not before the merger? How will the employees assimilate? How can Doug Parker run a successful airline, create a premier product, and siphon customers away from UAL and DAL with 3 factions constantly at war?

You see, there are a lot of critical questions out there that need to be answered before everyone starts playing airline analyst. Regurgitating talking points from one news source just doesn't cut it. If this merger were such a clear cut no-brainer, than the UCC would have endorsed and pushed for it long ago.

flybywire44 12-28-2012 04:54 AM

The pilots’ union at American Airlines stresses the importance of reaching a transition agreement regarding a possible merger (Updated 10:30 p.m. with American response) | Airline Biz Blog

Update at 10:30 p.m.: American is participating in discussions with US Airways, the APA and USAPA to evaluate “the impact of pilot labor costs, integration and seniority on a potential merger,” said American spokesman Mike Trevino. Discussions continue, he said.
Last week, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane approved American and its parent AMR Corp.’s request for a six-week extension to file their reorganization plan. The airline now has until March 11 to file its reorganization plan and until May 10 to seek acceptance from creditors.
Here’s the APA’s entire letter:


Dec. 27, 2012

Fellow pilots,

The APA Board of Directors reconvened today at 9 a.m. at union headquarters as part of the ongoing four-party negotiations between American Airlines and US Airways management, APA and the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA) on behalf of US Airways’ pilots.

These negotiations are aimed at reaching a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), or interim agreement, to address each pilot group’s respective concerns if the two carriers proceed to merge. The MOU would serve as the transition agreement and would also include improvements to our newly ratified collective bargaining agreement.

Some have suggested that the only way APA should “agree” to a merger is to first negotiate an integrated seniority list with USAPA. Major corporate mergers involving represented employee groups don’t work that way. No legal mechanism exists that would allow union-represented employees to interfere with a major transaction such as a merger. With McCaskill-Bond the law of the land, unless management predicates a merger on an integrated seniority list—much as we saw at Southwest in their acquisition of Air Tran–we are left to pick up the pieces after the merger has occurred.

While APA’s institutional position has consistently been one of support for a merger between the two carriers within bankruptcy, support for a merger at this juncture is not unanimous within the union. Likewise, AMR management has not embraced the concept of expediting a merger before restructuring concludes and clearly wants to retain control of the corporation and consider a merger on their terms following exit from bankruptcy. Keep in mind that AMR management has executed four different mergers—beginning with Trans Caribbean and ending with TWA—while completely disregarding the impact on our pilots’ seniority. I doubt that pilot seniority is anywhere near the top of their concerns right now. Likewise, I doubt that pilot seniority would be a key consideration if they were to execute a merger with US Airways, JetBlue or any other carrier following an independent exit from bankruptcy.

Instead, what we’re seeing is likely a deliberate attempt to sew fear amongst our pilots in an effort to derail consensual merger talks. A small group of pilots, with assistance from AMR management and a former CEO, has been advancing the notion that an integrated list should be a precondition to any further consideration of a merger. Their motives are crystal clear: hold on to the reins of power and control any merger on their terms. To be clear, fundamental capital transactions such as a merger involve a large number of parties. By virtue of the 13.5 percent equity stake we now hold as part of our ratified agreement, APA can exert influence over various aspects of a merger as a major stakeholder in AMR. However, we don’t have the ability to stop the clock and make everyone else wait while we sort through all of the issues associated with an integrated seniority list. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous, and simply ignorant of the law and the facts.

Our advisers have indicated that if we do not finalize an MOU in the very near future, in all likelihood there will be no merger before American Airlines exits restructuring. An MOU specifying wages and working conditions for the pilots, along with interim seniority protection in the form of fences, would enable creditors to identify synergies that would result from a merger of the two carriers. Absent an MOU, the financial benefits of a merger would remain unclear.

We all understand that seniority is extremely important to our careers. Of course, your seniority number is irrevocably tied to the airline you work for, so it’s likewise critical for your employer to be able to compete and thrive. The analysts who study our industry and make judgments about which airlines are best positioned in the marketplace have been virtually unanimous in the view that a merger with US Airways represents the best way to address our airline’s current deficiencies. Make no mistake—a merger of some sort is inevitable. The questions before us: Who do you want at the helm and do you want the ability to have some control over the process? In a post-bankruptcy merger, we would have little ability to influence any potential leadership changes at American Airlines and would represent nothing more than a speed bump.

It’s worth revisiting some of the reasons why the APA leadership decided several months ago that despite the inherent difficulties, a merger with US Airways represents the best path to a reinvigorated American Airlines and, by extension, a brighter future for us all. With the mergers of Delta-Northwest and United-Continental, American Airlines now stands at a distant third (and, by some measures, fourth in the U.S. industry) in terms of our revenue base and route network. A merger with US Airways is essential for both carriers and represents the quickest way to recapture the critical mass essential to competing effectively with those two carriers.
We have seen a model for a successfully arbitrated seniority integration at Delta-Northwest using fences and a ratio methodology based on a percentile seniority list ranking. Also, if an American Airlines-US Airways seniority integration were to be arbitrated, our attorneys have indicated that the ongoing seniority dispute between “West” and “East” at US Airways would be settled as part of the process and should not have any negative impact on an arbitrator’s decision under the McCaskill-Bond statute.

Many analysts believe that American Airlines finds itself in its present predicament because of an excessively cautious approach to consolidation during the past several years. Instead of vigorously pursuing Northwest Airlines as a remedy to American Airlines’ deficiencies in the Asian network, they sat on the sidelines as the rest of the industry flew by. How much longer should we wait before deciding that something needs to happen to fix American Airlines’ revenue and network disparities? Merging within bankruptcy also affords APA opportunities to “re-attack” sooner rather than later to capture additional contractual value in the form of a transition agreement/MOU for our members. On the other hand, a “wait and see” approach would ensure that American Airlines exits Chapter 11 restructuring as an independent carrier with our newly ratified contract. At that point we would have no mechanism for making any near-term contractual improvements, and little ability to influence the management structure or strategic direction of the corporation.

If the four parties agree to an MOU/transition agreement, we would proceed to the next phase of the process, which would involve the creditors assessing the financial benefits of a merger. If a merger meets with their approval, a series of additional steps would have to occur before a merger is approved and the new company exits restructuring, including consideration by the two companies’ boards of directors; antitrust review by the federal government; and approval of a plan of reorganization by the Unsecured Creditors’ Committee and the bankruptcy court.

Upon exit from restructuring, an application for single-employer status with the National Mediation Board must be made, which would take approximately six months. Once single-employer status is declared, we would go through a process to determine the bargaining agent for the pilots. After that we would begin negotiating a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), which would focus primarily on reconciling and integrating the US Airways pilots into the American Airlines operation. This JCBA must be completed within 24 months of a plan of reorganization being approved. If not, it would be submitted to binding arbitration for any remaining open items. Seniority integration negotiations would then commence. In the interim, we would operate in accordance with the protections stipulated by the MOU, including fences and provisions to ensure that pilots on the American Airlines seniority list would operate any aircraft delivered as part of the previously announced aircraft orders.
Fellow pilots, we understand your keen interest in the ongoing MOU negotiations, and we will continue to provide updates as developments warrant.

Thank you for remaining engaged in determining our collective futures.

In unity,
Keith Wilson
APA President

Enterprise 12-28-2012 05:42 AM

Unelected company shill Keith Wilson wrote "It’s worth revisiting some of the reasons why the APA leadership decided several months ago that despite the inherent difficulties"

Should have read "your APA leadership, without polling or asking the membership in any way, decided to pursue a merger with US Airways. Sure most of the membership hates the idea, but, too late. In our arrogance, we not only pursued the deal, we signed and executed a legal binding contract to support Doug Parker and make sure the membership cannot overturn this idiotic decision. We are fixated on getting revenge and getting rid of Tom Horton. Sure, it may destroy your seniority and your career, but the reward is oh so sweet. After you lose your home, cars, and your wife divorces you and takes the kids, you will be able to brag to your friends that you stuck it to the man. Oh by the way we will be increasing dues .5% next week. Merry Christmas."

R57 relay 12-28-2012 06:21 AM


Originally Posted by flybywire44 (Post 1319520)
US Airways pilots as a whole are much more laid back than this forum represents.

The few bad eggs here are the squeakiest wheels.

You are correct. There are what, at the most 10 US guys that post here? I go a whole 4 day trip and never talk about seniority. I have several west friends and even though we don't agree on the Nicolau, we have remained friends and get together in PHX and CLT. I respect them as friends and pilots, even if we don't see eye to eye. There are a few that have let this fight leave them unhinged. But if they are the type, if wasn't the SLI it would be something else.

I think the seniority has affected our operation in someways, but US Airways is running a pretty good operation and is solidly profitable. The margin of profitability is increased by our lousy contract, but not enough that it would disappear with industry standard.

Adding US would put AA on an even footing with DL and UA. DL is not sitting still waiting on anyone right now. They are the 800lb gorilla and are moving on and trying new things like the refinery and the Virgin stake. I think they are tops in performance rankings. UA has been slow to finish the merger and is suffering for it, but I don't think it will be long before you see a turn around there. #3 major network carrier behind these guys will not be a good view. They won't be going after jetBlue or Spirit's share......

I believe a AA/US merger would take care of the east/west fight and should be one of the lesser concerns for AA and it's pilots.

LittleBoyBlew 12-28-2012 07:03 AM


Originally Posted by Enterprise (Post 1319586)
Unelected company shill Keith Wilson wrote "It’s worth revisiting some of the reasons why the APA leadership decided several months ago that despite the inherent difficulties"

Should have read "your APA leadership, without polling or asking the membership in any way, decided to pursue a merger with US Airways. Sure most of the membership hates the idea, but, too late. In our arrogance, we not only pursued the deal, we signed and executed a legal binding contract to support Doug Parker and make sure the membership cannot overturn this idiotic decision. We are fixated on getting revenge and getting rid of Tom Horton. Sure, it may destroy your seniority and your career, but the reward is oh so sweet. After you lose your home, cars, and your wife divorces you and takes the kids, you will be able to brag to your friends that you stuck it to the man. Oh by the way we will be increasing dues .5% next week. Merry Christmas."

On the OTHER hand...A "stand alone" AA would most probably succumb to industry economic pressures as Delta and UA morph into Global Carriers. They are now strengthening international alliances that will eventually lead to industry dominance. Their economic strengths will allow them to compete, not only in pricing, but in service and quality, and efficiency. Fuel purchases will be in the high billions. Allowing them to purchase/refine product at reduced prices, therefore improving their respective margins. Their innovation and out of the box strategies will inflict tremendous revenue pressure on AA. This will require additional OUT-SOURCING of up to 50% of domestic capacity, among other painful retractions. In the long run AA and US will be nothing more than 3rd tier FEEDERS for the NEW big kids on the block....
Ask the wife and kids how THEY feel about this...

KillingMeSmalls 12-28-2012 07:37 AM


Originally Posted by Enterprise (Post 1319586)
Unelected company shill Keith Wilson wrote "It’s worth revisiting some of the reasons why the APA leadership decided several months ago that despite the inherent difficulties"

Should have read "your APA leadership, without polling or asking the membership in any way, decided to pursue a merger with US Airways. Sure most of the membership hates the idea, but, too late. In our arrogance, we not only pursued the deal, we signed and executed a legal binding contract to support Doug Parker and make sure the membership cannot overturn this idiotic decision. We are fixated on getting revenge and getting rid of Tom Horton. Sure, it may destroy your seniority and your career, but the reward is oh so sweet. After you lose your home, cars, and your wife divorces you and takes the kids, you will be able to brag to your friends that you stuck it to the man. Oh by the way we will be increasing dues .5% next week. Merry Christmas."

Should have read, "My name is Enterprise and I have personal problems which I try to solve by posting hate on the internet."

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...87/717/bd4.gif

I'm pretty sure Cactiboss belongs in this category too.

Wiskey Driver 12-28-2012 07:39 AM


Originally Posted by Enterprise (Post 1319572)
Actually, that is a person who is regurgitating talking points from APA union officials that are trying to save face.

There is nothing US Airways has that can fill any glaring network deficiencies at AA. Having a CLT hub does nothing to get us the much needed slots at JFK. Having a PHX hub does nothing to bolster a Pacific route network.

What else does US Airways do for AA? Increase yields? AA already leads UAL and DAL for the year (sans the 3Q "issue" we had), and that is before employee concession even kick in. More "revenue?" The last time AA led the industry in revenue, we led the industry in losses. "Synergies?" What are they? Is someone now going to book off DAL so they can connect through our new LAS "synergy" hub?

If someone wants to promote this merger for all of the wonderful things it brings, than you had better be prepared to start getting specific. Talking about vague things like "more revenue", and "growth", and "synergies" just doesn't cut it. What are the new routes going to be? How are we going to grow in critical markets like NYC? Will the pilots of this newly merged airline going to be flying Pacific routes? If so, what are the new routes? How are these new routes possible now and they were not before the merger? How will the employees assimilate? How can Doug Parker run a successful airline, create a premier product, and siphon customers away from UAL and DAL with 3 factions constantly at war?

You see, there are a lot of critical questions out there that need to be answered before everyone starts playing airline analyst. Regurgitating talking points from one news source just doesn't cut it. If this merger were such a clear cut no-brainer, than the UCC would have endorsed and pushed for it long ago.

Ok now having said all that take off your pilot uniform and put on a business suit! JFK although to a PILOT looks like a mecca DCA is a huge money maker all on its own. Where JFK stagnates DCA does not. What can not be denied is the international presence of JFK but then again every other airline sees this as well. Philly is a just a hop skip and a jump from JFK so it can be done.

Greed is what kills pilots careers and just a quick look at the APA track record in this regard will show this. No need to go into it because we all know the story. Then there is USEAST, who asked for a process, got that process then refused to honor it. So what has this produced? The undeniable feeling of mistrust and hatred toward our fellow pilots. I can say without a doubt that I can not stand the east pilots and have zero respect for them, the same as I would for any lying cheat. I will not support jumpseat denials as that has no place in the industry. I do however limit my conversation with them as I would any scab. Yes I know, they never crossed a picket line thus many believe they are not true scabs but what they have done is far worse.

The rest of the industry sees the east west fight as only the arbitration however there is far more that you dont know! The refusing to deal with west grievances, the rigging of elections, YES THEY DID THAT!!! The shutting out of west elected personal from their so called union meetings and then calling the police to have us removed from a process for which we pay extortion dues to! The list goes on and on, so you can see why my hatred runs far and deep.

The hope I have is that they can some how place this whole situation in position where we can sue them and collect monies. Nothing would give me more pleasure than the bankrupt usapa jointly and severally.

WD at AWA

R57 relay 12-28-2012 07:52 AM


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319632)
Then there is USEAST, who asked for a process, got that process then refused to honor it. So what has this produced? The undeniable feeling of mistrust and hatred toward our fellow pilots. I can say without a doubt that I can not stand the east pilots and have zero respect for them, the same as I would for any lying cheat. I will not support jumpseat denials as that has no place in the industry. I do however limit my conversation with them as I would any scab. Yes I know, they never crossed a picket line thus many believe they are not true scabs but what they have done is far worse.

This is the kind of guy I was talking about above. There are some just like him on the east, but they are in the minority.

Just imagine if we could focus this on management instead of each other.

R57 relay 12-28-2012 08:16 AM


Originally Posted by cactusmike (Post 1319535)
The east west bickering will go away after a merger that subordinates both groups to the back of the bus. ...............


See your PM.

nwa757 12-28-2012 08:20 AM


Originally Posted by nwa757 (Post 1317712)

This letter is an important follow up to describe the motive behind this youtube message. Dont follow the fear mongering from random perspectives on this board, follow official sources.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/12/the-pilots-union-at-american-airlines-stressed-the-importance-of-reaching-a-transitional-agreement-regarding-a-possible-merger.html

cactiboss 12-28-2012 08:45 AM


Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1319642)
This is the kind of guy I was talking about above. There are some just like him on the east, but they are in the minority.

Just imagine if we could focus this on management instead of each other.

Well they are in the majority on the west. Most west pilots are engaged and know that the only way out is to remove the east majority.

R57 relay 12-28-2012 09:07 AM


Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1319666)
Well they are in the majority on the west. Most west pilots are engaged and know that the only way out is to remove the east majority.

I don't think so. No west pilot I know is like you or wisky. But hey, keep on trying to convince the AA pilots that their worst fears are correct. Moron. An AA merger is the fastest way to what you want.

cactiboss 12-28-2012 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1319678)
I don't think so. No west pilot I know is like you or wisky. But hey, keep on trying to convince the AA pilots that their worst fears are correct. Moron. An AA merger is the fastest way to what you want.

So you are saying your west friends don't despise usapa and want to see it destroyed asap? I call bullshiite.

R57 relay 12-28-2012 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1319684)
So you are saying your west friends don't despise usapa and want to see it destroyed asap? I call bullshiite.

No, they don't. The have the brains to know that USAPA is not a human entity and thus not worthy of hate. What they don't like are certain individuals within USAPA and the east pilot group that they feel have acted unethically. They are also smart enough to know that not all east pilots feel the same way about some USAPA leaders actions, and that some are unaware of some of those actions. Instead of taking a shotgun "I hate you guys!" approach, they give the individual the benefit of the doubt. They realize that USAPA is the legally elected bargaining agent and have tried to work from within, while standing firm about their rights. THEY DON'T WHINE. We can set around with some cold beverages, argue until the empties pile up and leave patting each other on the back. It's why I like them and respect them, unlike the minority on both sides.

A merger with AA will see the end of USAPA, no doubt about that.

cactiboss 12-28-2012 09:48 AM


Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1319687)
No, they don't. The have the brains to know that USAPA is not a human entity and thus not worthy of hate. What they don't like are certain individuals within USAPA and the east pilot group that they feel have acted unethically. They are also smart enough to know that not all east pilots feel the same way about some USAPA leaders actions, and that some are unaware of some of those actions. Instead of taking a shotgun "I hate you guys!" approach, they give the individual the benefit of the doubt. They realize that USAPA is the legally elected bargaining agent and have tried to work from within, while standing firm about their rights. THEY DON'T WHINE. We can set around with some cold beverages, argue until the empties pile up and leave patting each other on the back. It's why I like them and respect them, unlike the minority on both sides.

A merger with AA will see the end of USAPA, no doubt about that.

So your west friends don't want to see usapa gone ASAP? I don't believe u for a sec.

Enterprise 12-28-2012 10:33 AM


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319632)
JFK although to a PILOT looks like a mecca

NYC is one of, if not THE most important cities in a passenger network. Passenger yields surpass DCA. If memory serves me correctly, the most lucrative yield route on the planet is NYC-LHR. We now have a $1.3 BILLION dollar investment sitting there operating at about half capacity because of the poor decisions of the dunderheads that ran AA into bankruptcy.


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319632)
DCA is a huge money maker all on its own.

It does OK, but there are still about a dozen cities ahead of it.


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319632)
What can not be denied is the international presence of JFK but then again every other airline sees this as well. Philly is a just a hop skip and a jump from JFK so it can be done.

?

What are connecting passengers supposed to do? Hop in a rental car and drive to JFK?


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319632)
Greed is what kills pilots careers and just a quick look at the APA track record in this regard will show this.

This is awesome. You see, I have never been educated on this point, so here is your opportunity. Please educate all of us on "APA's track record" and examples of APA "greed." Thanks.

R57 relay 12-28-2012 10:46 AM


Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1319695)
So your west friends don't want to see usapa gone ASAP? I don't believe u for a sec.

Is that dense thing an act?

They would be fine seeing USAPA go away. It would take away a lot of issues. But, they also realize that if some of the problem children migrate to APA, they could be a problem too. I hate to break this to you, but there have been some pilots during APA's history that weren't too happy with them either.

cactiboss 12-28-2012 11:42 AM


Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1319720)
Is that dense thing an act?

They would be fine seeing USAPA go away. It would take away a lot of issues. But, they also realize that if some of the problem children migrate to APA, they could be a problem too. I hate to break this to you, but there have been some pilots during APA's history that weren't too happy with them either.

I bet you can't produce a west pilot that doesn't absolutely despise usapa. It should tell you something that knowing apa history the west is willing to jump out of the pan and into the fire to get away from the east.

cactusmike 12-28-2012 11:45 AM


Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1319615)
On the OTHER hand...A "stand alone" AA would most probably succumb to industry economic pressures as Delta and UA morph into Global Carriers. They are now strengthening international alliances that will eventually lead to industry dominance. Their economic strengths will allow them to compete, not only in pricing, but in service and quality, and efficiency. Fuel purchases will be in the high billions. Allowing them to purchase/refine product at reduced prices, therefore improving their respective margins. Their innovation and out of the box strategies will inflict tremendous revenue pressure on AA. This will require additional OUT-SOURCING of up to 50% of domestic capacity, among other painful retractions. In the long run AA and US will be nothing more than 3rd tier FEEDERS for the NEW big kids on the block....
Ask the wife and kids how THEY feel about this...

Damn, I am agreeing with you again! This must stop!

I would like to offer some additional points. The combined carrier would be equal to UCAL and Delta. The hubs are to stay according to Parker's plan but you will see flying shifted around to wherever more lucrative flying occurs. We have seen that in our merger where LAS closed due to a big increase in costs and flying was added out of CLT and PHL with the closure of LGA and BOS.

Things will change after the merger but they will change for the better. The combined carrier will be a lot stronger and both sides going in have aircraft orders to take. Hortons plan would have the AA pilots stagnate, since lots of those "exciting new orders" will go to replace aging maddogs and 757s. And the increase in code share and RJs will just continue the stagnation, except for the attrition as age 65 kicks in. I have a strong belief that native AA pilots will do well in a SLI because of the larger widebody fleet and the upside for a merger is what drives the APA leadership.

cactiboss 12-28-2012 12:40 PM


Originally Posted by cactusmike (Post 1319742)
Damn, I am agreeing with you again! This must stop!

I would like to offer some additional points. The combined carrier would be equal to UCAL and Delta. The hubs are to stay according to Parker's plan but you will see flying shifted around to wherever more lucrative flying occurs. We have seen that in our merger where LAS closed due to a big increase in costs and flying was added out of CLT and PHL with the closure of LGA and BOS.

Things will change after the merger but they will change for the better. The combined carrier will be a lot stronger and both sides going in have aircraft orders to take. Hortons plan would have the AA pilots stagnate, since lots of those "exciting new orders" will go to replace aging maddogs and 757s. And the increase in code share and RJs will just continue the stagnation, except for the attrition as age 65 kicks in. I have a strong belief that native AA pilots will do well in a SLI because of the larger widebody fleet and the upside for a merger is what drives the APA leadership.

Mike, since r57 seems to respect your opinion, could you give me your thoughts on a couple of things? I'll ask and you can answer if you feel like it.

A. In your opinion, what is the percentage of west pilots that despise usapa and want to see it destroyed?

Gomerglideslope 12-28-2012 12:43 PM

Looks like APA wants the SLI done first or they will block the merger...

AMR Union Says Lack of Accord Threatens Merger in Bankruptcy - Bloomberg

cactiboss 12-28-2012 12:53 PM


Originally Posted by Gomerglideslope (Post 1319764)
Looks like APA wants the SLI done first or they will block the merger...

AMR Union Says Lack of Accord Threatens Merger in Bankruptcy - Bloomberg

It is the opposite of that.

R57 relay 12-28-2012 01:21 PM


Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1319739)
I bet you can't produce a west pilot that doesn't absolutely despise usapa. It should tell you something that knowing apa history the west is willing to jump out of the pan and into the fire to get away from the east.

Every time I give you the benefit of a doubt, you show me it isn't a ruse. Do you have a reading comprehension problem. Here is a belated Christmas present to all. I won't respond publicly to your posts. Want to chat? PM me.

flybywire44 12-28-2012 01:42 PM


Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1319762)
Mike, since r57 seems to respect your opinion, could you give me your thoughts on a couple of things? I'll ask and you can answer if you feel like it.

A. In your opinion, what is the percentage of west pilots that despise usapa and want to see it destroyed?

Who cares about USAPA?

USAPA will be gone in less than a year... maybe 6 months if this merger progressed in a timely manor. Lets work towards a merger.

Have faith... DFR lawsuits will be filed post merger/SLI—No more infighting.

2013 could be a good year for everyone—Cheers. :)

nwa757 12-28-2012 03:00 PM


Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1319766)

Originally Posted by Gomerglideslope (Post 1319764)
Looks like APA wants the SLI done first or they will block the merger...

AMR Union Says Lack of Accord Threatens Merger in Bankruptcy - Bloomberg

It is the opposite of that.

Exactly. Read here:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/12/the-pilots-union-at-american-airlines-stressed-the-importance-of-reaching-a-transitional-agreement-regarding-a-possible-merger.html

cactiboss 12-28-2012 03:51 PM

The APA is doing the only smart thing, push sli to a neutral process so they can't be sued later (alpa does it this way). This of course is something the law breaking east pilots can't comprehend.

Wiskey Driver 12-28-2012 03:53 PM


Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1319687)
No, they don't. The have the brains to know that USAPA is not a human entity and thus not worthy of hate. What they don't like are certain individuals within USAPA and the east pilot group that they feel have acted unethically. They are also smart enough to know that not all east pilots feel the same way about some USAPA leaders actions, and that some are unaware of some of those actions. Instead of taking a shotgun "I hate you guys!" approach, they give the individual the benefit of the doubt. They realize that USAPA is the legally elected bargaining agent and have tried to work from within, while standing firm about their rights. THEY DON'T WHINE. We can set around with some cold beverages, argue until the empties pile up and leave patting each other on the back. It's why I like them and respect them, unlike the minority on both sides.

A merger with AA will see the end of USAPA, no doubt about that.

Hey man I wanna get high too pass the pipe:rolleyes: I think you are playing fool to try convince yourself and a few others that you and the east are not hated to the bone by us. What you and your fellow east pilots have done is nothing short of criminal. Now if you want to tell the AA pilots the truth then there is it. I see that lying and cheating come natural to you but dont try to **** on me and then tell me its only rain.

WD at AWA

Wiskey Driver 12-28-2012 03:55 PM


Originally Posted by Enterprise (Post 1319716)
NYC is one of, if not THE most important cities in a passenger network. Passenger yields surpass DCA. If memory serves me correctly, the most lucrative yield route on the planet is NYC-LHR. We now have a $1.3 BILLION dollar investment sitting there operating at about half capacity because of the poor decisions of the dunderheads that ran AA into bankruptcy.



It does OK, but there are still about a dozen cities ahead of it.



?

What are connecting passengers supposed to do? Hop in a rental car and drive to JFK?



This is awesome. You see, I have never been educated on this point, so here is your opportunity. Please educate all of us on "APA's track record" and examples of APA "greed." Thanks.

TWA need I saw any more??

WD at AWA

LittleBoyBlew 12-28-2012 04:05 PM


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319822)
Hey man I wanna get high too pass the pipe:rolleyes: I think you are playing fool to try convince yourself and a few others that you and the east are not hated to the bone by us. What you and your fellow east pilots have done is nothing short of criminal. Now if you want to tell the AA pilots the truth then there is it. I see that lying and cheating come natural to you but dont try to **** on me and then tell me its only rain.

WD at AWA

"Criminal"??? If so, Why will the courts not MANDATE the implementation of the Nic??

R57 relay 12-28-2012 04:29 PM


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319822)
Hey man I wanna get high too pass the pipe:rolleyes: I think you are playing fool to try convince yourself and a few others that you and the east are not hated to the bone by us. What you and your fellow east pilots have done is nothing short of criminal. Now if you want to tell the AA pilots the truth then there is it. I see that lying and cheating come natural to you but dont try to **** on me and then tell me its only rain.

WD at AWA

Was that donation I made to the C18 defense fund criminal?

R57 relay 12-28-2012 04:30 PM


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319824)
TWA need I saw any more??

WD at AWA

Looks like you've already hit the pipe. You still flying for AWA? On flight sim?

Enterprise 12-28-2012 04:33 PM


Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1319824)
TWA need I saw any more??

Yes, you can "saw" more.

Please saw us how placing 19 year USAirways pilots next to AWA new hires was fair.

Pot meet kettle.

cactiboss 12-28-2012 04:44 PM

Yes criminal, convicted of dfr by a jury, overturned only on ripeness not merit. Criminal and illegal is what companies attorney called it in a letter to the NMB.

Wiskey Driver 12-28-2012 04:48 PM


Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1319829)
"Criminal"??? If so, Why will the courts not MANDATE the implementation of the Nic??

Unions are given wide latitude in which to conduct business. Now by virtue of that same latitude it also gives tons of rope in which to hang themselves. The courts have determined that absent a contract harm can not be established. Now usapa will never deliver a contract and we both know why so no need to rehash that subject. So here we sit while you continue steal thru stalling. Stealing is criminal thus the criminal comment...

WD at AWA

Wiskey Driver 12-28-2012 04:54 PM


Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1319839)
Was that donation I made to the C18 defense fund criminal?

Well if you did and that still remains to be seen then you realize that usapa acted with and continues to act with malice toward west pilots. Their overall behavior reeks of criminal intent. Holding an election where west pilots win the seats and because usapa dont like that they invalidate the election in order to put east only in the positions. Usapa/the east can kiss my entire a$$ as they are the lowest form of scab there is. They destroy a union for east only gratification.

WD at AWA

Wiskey Driver 12-28-2012 04:56 PM


Originally Posted by Enterprise (Post 1319842)
Yes, you can "saw" more.

Please saw us how placing 19 year USAirways pilots next to AWA new hires was fair.

Pot meet kettle.

80 words a min and no spell check:D

SAY MORE! Those chicken now appear to be coming home to roost.

WD at AWA


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:35 PM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands