I challenge you folks to contemplate the cost benefit of discussing a past that you have no control over verses an overwhelmingly positive opportunity that would change your lives in an overwhelmingly positive manor.

Decisions...decisions.

We are discussing the future, a future where the east is no longer in charge and usapa is destroyed is indeed a positive move.

My New Years wish is that wiser folks than some of those on web boards are working hard in Dallas. Sure would be nice to see a win-win.

It does not remain to be seen. I have the cancelled check. While some west pilots were throwing them under the bus or using them as fodder, I was trying very hard to have the suit dropped.

You see WD, some of us try to see the truth and do what is right. Even if we are east of the Mississippi.

Ok I tell you what, you want the world the know that the east pilots are saints and that the events of the past 4 plus years have been figments of our imagination. Post your cancelled check for all to see with the bank stamp showing paid!!! Then I will believe you. I know the real you as I get them in my the pvt messages from you telling me to go fk myself! So let the real you stand up and take a bow.

WD at AWA

Good luck there scooter.

This thread is a textbook case of why Bob Crandall words are spot on. No sooner than the dust settles on the new and improved contract for US, we'll be fighting this vitriolic battle for the rest of our careers. While management teams and CEOs come and go, seniority is forever! To not have a solid seniority plan in place before a merger take place is quite foolhardy. I also think its instructive that 99 plus percent of respondents on this thread are US pilots. Who really stands to gain the most here, surely it's not the AA pilots! At best, you are talking incremental improvements, but at a steep cost.

Typically, those championing arbitration feel they're in the stronger position. Of course time will tell.

This feels like a line from Dirty Harry - "do you feel lucky". Here's a question I have, is the APA leadership willing to put this to the membership for vote?!?!

You have some valid points. Now. Where do TWA pilots stand in this and how much effect will they have on things. They are much like US and AWA pilots. This is so far beyond SLI it's not funny.

This is who he really is and it represents the general way we are treated by the east. Notice all the personal attacks ie name calling. THIS IS WHAT WE PUT UP WITH FROM THE EAST.

R57 relay
Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 893

Default Re: **** you
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Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver
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Originally Posted by R57 relay
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Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver
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Originally Posted by R57 relay
You are ****ing right I contributed to them. I supported them while some of your own turned their back on them. I offered to do more and was told by David Braid to "drop it". You are the worst kind of ignorant SOB. Go **** yourself.

(ME) Why so hostile and how do you know Im not Dave?? Go fk myself come on is that the best you can do? Honestly.

Well, I thought Dave was smarter than you, even with the refused offer. If you are Dave the sentiment stands. I think you are a 2004 hire.

(ME) You are free to think as you wish.

Hey **** for brains, I'll tell you what. You go ask David if any pilots tried to help with the C18. Ask him if anyone knew a "celebrity" that you guys hate, and tried to get him to help. Ask him what he said and get back to me.

American pilots. Has the above not shown you that you have absolutely nothing to fear from a US/AA merger?

All the more reason to get it ironed out before hand, if as you say, the AA pilots have nothing to fear!

That would be good, if it happens. I certainly understand your concerns and if I were an AA pilot I would share them.

Thing is, I see AA pilots in the driver's seat. US pilots are too busy fighting 5 year old fights. We have the majority of retirements for the next few years. Who will benefit from them?

AA has the bulk of WB and the entire fleet. Doug Parker has absolutely no allegiance to east or west US. Who will benefit?

Horton only wants to see a payout for him and his cronies. Parker only wants to see a payout for him and his cronies and his ego. Which will serve the AA pilots better? Pay Horton to remain the 3rd largest network carrier or pay Parker to be #1? You need not be worried about US or a SLI.

Do your really think an independent AA can GROW to the size of DL?

I wish for a day when there are 3 major network carriers, with pilots that want to be returned to a worthy position. Working together instead of against.

DAL/NWA pilots didn't need to get it ironed out before hand. They handled it like professional adults, after they realized how much they had to gain with the merger.

Keep in mind, this potential merger is bigger than any one individual, bigger than the east/west drama, it is about the collective whole 12000+ pilots. 12000+ are stronger than three pilot groups arguing amongst themselves.

For this merger will work out for everyone in the end, I recommend stopping infighting and lets post and act like professionals. APA and USAPA reps are working day and night to make this work, cowboy posts on this forum won't help the cause.

Well that is a lot easier said than done as you at NWA/DAL were not marred with people trying to destroy your career and costing you tens of thousands of dollars in the process. This thing could have been over years ago if not for the ANGRY F/O CLUB and we would be working on our second contract by now.

WD at AWA

Very well said. The thing that always bothered me about these forums is that some pilots believe it's a place to just rant rant rant...

"Feel sorry for me because la la la. East pilots are all evil la la la. West pilots got handed the world la la la. AMR is a super-duper airline that doesn't need anyone la la la"

I need to break my addiction to this site.

Please spell out, in detail, what and how much AA pilots will "gain" by merging with US Airways.

American pilots say deal with US Airways pilots required for pre-exit mergerDecember 28, 2012



The pilots union at American Airlines said it needs to have a seniority integration agreement with counterparts at US Airways if the two airlines are realistically going to start a merger process before American emerges from Chapter 11 protection, Bloomberg reported.
The story quoted Allied Pilots Association head Keith Wilson as saying that if a deal isn’t reached “in the very near future, in all likelihood there will be no merger before American Airlines exits restructuring,” quoting a message on the union website.

-Acceleration to industry standard pay, now instead of years down the road. Industry standard pay comes with matching revenue of peers.
-Stability of working for a global carrier.
-Building of the world's largest and most efficient A319/20/21 fleet.
-More routes, efficient trips with synergies. Highly profitable shuttle system.
-More base choices after fences come down.

...essentially all the benefits that CAL/UAL and NWA/DAL pilots are benefiting from today, while AA pilots are currently not.

These are broad benefits, the details you request are of course being figured out in the 4 party agreement under the NDA currently.

as a "business model" I think US Air/AA stands a better chance merged together to compete with everyone else than US Air and AA as non-merged, separate, companies.

Now, what pilot group benefits, what captain goes to what equipment, etc etc, I don't think anybody can crystal ball that.

What worries you the most about a AA/US merger?

I know a lot of folks are worried about the east/west mess, but that is well known and people know it has to be dealt with.

SLI? Base realignment? Just curious, I think it wise to question these things.

It always seems that it the thing you don't see coming that gets you.

This had nothing to do with actual SLI and they have acknowledged that would occur well down the road. It was about softening the blow to AA pilots that the interim agreement to replace the current contract won't be all that much of an improvement and will still be well short of industry standard. In other words their promise of a better deal for AA pilots if a merge occurs if they ratified the 2nd LBFO will be mostly inaccurate and disappointing, but necessary to move forward.

I think Wilson is urging an interim deal so the merger can proceed, but no ISL until afterward.

There is virtually no difference in the mid-contract adjustment from Parker or Horton.

I already work for a global carrier.

Seriously? Who cares who the aircraft manufacturer is?

In addition to the routes currently flown by both airlines, what NEW routes will be flown? This is key. Please be specific.

There is NOTHING to indicate that a merger will cause trips to be "efficient." Many of the trips at DAL are horrific and grossly inefficient.

Please list what these "synergies" are.

Irrelevant if the rest of the system is not profitable.

Once again, who cares. Should I tell my family the wonderful news that we have the "opportunity" to move to Philly?

CAL & UAL have not hooked up yet. Wait until the seniority food fight begins. It will be AWA vs. USAir version 2.0.

NWA & DAL have realized many good things because of very specific events. DAL had a mass retirement surge pre-merger. DAL & NWA had relatively equal operations and resulting seniority list mergers.

Seniority is everything. This merger will be nothing less than a windfall for the west, a wash for the east, and devastating for AA pilots.

No thanks.

You can keep your "synergies."

Top 3 concerns:

1. Seniority
2. Seniority
3. Seniority

Sorry, but with the way AA has shrunk the past several years, any SLI based upon relative seniority would be devastating to the AA pilots. Just ask the Easties how well relative seniority worked out.

Here are a few novel questions - If Mr. Parker had been appointed CEO of AMR on November 29, 2011, how would he have dealt with the unions at AA through this BK process? Were he CEO at AA, would he have proposed a merger with US? Is past performance any indicator of future performance? It's hard for many to remove the emotion from the equation. Ultimately, for every pilot, our lives and careers are governed by seniority. It is understandable that most of the US pilots are in favor of the deal as it results in a huge windfall without the necessity of going through section 6 negotiations.

While hope isn't a strategy or something to hang your hat on, and since the membership won't get a vote, one can only pray that the APA leadership has looked at every possible downside for its members and factored it into an MOU!

T58 - simple question - what floor do you press on the elevator to get to work?

Well the CR key and the smaller one works wonders.

I've never hid the act that I'm a diehard AAer and its consistent throughout my posts. Ultimately, despite all the angst expressed in this forum, mine included, the newly constituted AMR BOD will determine who the CEO will be. If they decide along with the UCC that a merger is in our best interests and that the CEO is Mr. Parker or Mr. Horton, I'll move on and give the company combined company my all.

The focus of this particular thread is whether a seniority integration plan should be presented and agreed to prior to a merger. I happen to be in the group that believe you leave as little to arbitrators as possible.

If you have another agenda, I'll leave you to it but I won't indulge it.

No need to apologize, those are three good reasons. I don't have to ask an eastie, I am one. Seems to me AA would be in a better position than US pilots were, but I don't have any data to back that up.

Good luck to us all.

Dear Enterprise,


Please visit this link and bring yourself up to speed:
Pay close attention to AMR & LCC Explained.pdf 2.13 MB. :o


All the best,
FBW



.

Enterprise,

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/r...d-facepalm.jpg

T58 - Just wondering if not having to bid is part of your agenda.

I hope you are prepared for what 10,000 pilots, APA, thinks about the windfall of the NIC that you defend.

Every pilot group knows the danger for them if it prevails, except for you of course. It's not going to happen.

It's already happened at every merger in the past 7 years. When the water is over your nose, you might as well pull your finger out of the dike.

I disagree. AA with a significant cash infusion would stomp US out of existence with the help of DAL. And then DAL would start woopin' on AA.

I agree to disagree. :p

There is a reason why US Airways is effectively competing against Southwest. Significantly underpaid US Airways pilots receive less than comparable JetBlue and Spirit Airlines pilots.

I believe US Airways will continue to effectively compete and grow.

If a merger doesnt happen with AA, is it realistic for US/HP to get a SLI and JCBA to move forward in the next year or two?

If US pilots werent drastically underpaid then would they be able to compete?

Short answer to your question is yes, if we were paid comparable to jetBlue and Spirit and anyone else making about 170 per hour on the airbus we would be fine. That is what management and ALPA had agreed to before USAPA was voted in. The "Kirby proposal" was really close to being a done deal when ALPA was tossed off the island. When USAPA came in they reopened every section of the contract. I think there are about 8 sections TA'd now instead of all but 3. Management would not agree to those rates if it was unprofitable.

The way our transition agreement was structured we have to have the SLI done before the joint contract, thanks to our food fight no one else is doing that anymore. New mantra is get the JCBA, then the SLI.

I have to disagree with you on these two items CM. You are correct that most sections were done, but the ones that were left were the big ones. Is a turbine running at 50% N1 producing 50% of it's available thrust? No, it's not linear and neither are contract negotiations. You can knock out 90% of the items and be stuck on the other 10% because they are what really counts. The section covering prisoner of war is not quite as contentious as pay. The fact that out F/As, who don't have a SLI issue hanging over their heads, are still without a contract points this out. There is no guarantee that had the east ALPA NC stayed in joint talks that they would have produced a ratifiable contract, and I don't believe they would have.

West guys consistently underestimate where we were when the Nicolau came out. The Kirby had people a little hot under the collar BEFORE the Nic came out. After it came out, it made it worse. We were not near a contract then. I've said that a good enough Nic inclusive contract would have passed, but I don't think Parker would have or maybe even could have produced it then. But by the time we were really deciding about ALPA vs. USAPA etc., the great recession was on it's way. The rest is history.

Our T/A does not call for a SLI before a joint contract. They were running in parallel with no requirement for either to be done first. Had Parker not been trying to get every penny out of the east for as long as possible and had concluded the joint contract before Nicoau was done then the SLI would have been the LAST piece of the puzzle, the merger would have been complete and we would be having this conversation right now.

One indisputable fact of this merger that west guys ignore. The T/A calls for separate ops until we have a joint contract, a joint SL and one operating certificate, no matter what the reason is. We are missing one of those. I can understand the anger over the method, but had we voted down a joint contract over and over again the outcome would have been the same.

Hopefully none of this will matter soon.

To answer the heart of your question without diluting it with East vs West hoopla, US Airways without a merger will continue to exist. A new contract would be an eventuality, but not a near term reality.

US Airways management will drag out the current status quo as long as they can. Pay rates will stay low, but movement on the east side would be exponential.

East/West pilots really need this merger for "balance to be restored to the force."