More USAir pilots please read...
 

There is NO CRM at AA. We have this class called HF Human Factors that started 5 years ago. It is total bunk. There show 2 little videos of someone screwing up. And then say "What factors contributed to this?"

Then they gloss over "What a Great fatigue program we have! It's the best!"

This is my 3rd airline. The other 2 had actual CRM classes. All we realyy need are some code words like: "This is an unsafe operation" which triggers ALL pilots to get on the same page quickly or take another plan of action.

Example: my last trip i'm landing FO at 4:40am. On approach into Miami I hear a tired lady controller say "ILS out of service" At that hour there is only 1 ILS operational. I tell the captain "I heard ILS OTS" He says "I didn't hear that"
I ask, can you ask?
He says, It's not on the ATIS
I ask, can you ask?
He says "NO"

I should have just keyed the mike and asked.

So now we are 15 seconds into the 30 second trend indicator on the ND (meaning we are 15 seconds form intercept with no clearance)

I say "Can you get a clearance"

The controller clears us for visual.

I say "NO LOC"

"LNAV/VNAV"

Capt says "How about APP mode"

I say "No, VNAV LNAV"

We land uneventful, but a bit of ___ and elbows.


Welcome to AA this is ONE of the many reasons we are call Sky ______'s


Please USAir Pilots pass this info on, if you have CRM at USAir we need it. Our HF class is stupid and worthless.

The HF class instructors are known COOLAID Drinkers. It's nauseating.



I will continue to pass on notes/info of what could be done better for our JBCA.

AA's problem is they have never looked to see how/what other airlines do that is an improvement or things that are better.


At AA we still wait up to 20 minutes with both engines running for Loads Takeoff numbers.

While we watch SouthWest and Delta and USAir taxi out and takeoff never waiting for numbers. Then they lecture me about fuel burn and APU usage.

3,2,1 some pilot from AA will say "Our Fatigue lady is Great, she's the best in the Biz We stole her from Easy Jet"

If she is the best then why:
5 years ago I asked her why the turn after Quito Ecuador (Quito is 9,400' MSL
You do not sleep well there, hit or miss and then you do a turn after.

I asked her if she'd ever been? Blank stare.

1 year later same thing. Same turn
2 years later, same thing, Quito both overnights still have a turn upon return to MIA.
3 year later same thing.

This January 2013, I'm on the 777 I call her to complain about a Rocket GRU trip. I hate it, I also leave a lengthy message about Quito still having a turn.

No response.

When the new Quito airport opened in May, they got rid of the turns after RON.

Some say she got BOG as an all nighter turn form the 737 to 757 with an FB (IO-extra co-pilot)
Some will say she got GYE as an all nighter turn 767 with an FB. But the fact is they needed the 767 for Barcelona.

She has done very little.

We do have a pretty good fatigue program, but this lady has done very little.


Pilots understand fatigue, not some lady whose never flown an airplane or even been to a high altitude city.

At Quito Ecuador on the 19th floor of the Hilton Colon Hotel, I'm pretty sure you might be 10,000' msl. How would you sleep?

Sleep?? Is be so oxygen deprived I'd probably not wake up. LOL.

From what I've seen at Airways, there is no specific CRM class. Threat and Error Management is built into everything we do. It starts from Day 2 (Day 1 is company introductions and paperwork). All around the training center, in every classroom and every briefing room, you see our TEM diagrams. We even have them in our Supplemental Binder (the binder we carry to supplement the ship sets). We were told that other airlines have used our TEM program as a model. I like it.

We wait on our numbers quite a bit, too. At some of the outstations it takes a while for them to put the numbers in so CLP (Central Load Planning) can send it out. If there are no major issues, as soon as the numbers are in the computer, the Final W/B is sent to the airplane. I waited 20+ minutes at the end of 22L in ORD last month for the ramp to put the bag numbers in. No one was answering on the radio and Dispatch and CLP couldn't get anyone on the phone. This was the middle of the afternoon in ORD. There were also 3 of us in the Block for 19 at DCA last month, all waiting on numbers. You're not alone. Normally, it's not too bad, but I have had to wait.

Wow American sounds like it sucks.

Yeesh. I haven't experienced something like that EVER in a cockpit.

TEM is the newest evolution of CRM.

DL is also very big on it. When I got hired in 2007 they were trying to catch up to CAL who was considered the leader in the industry on it. It's not a bad thing at all... each briefing since they made that push includes "the greatest known threat and its mitigation." Do they do the "Time/No-time" umbrellas for yall?

I do tend to see US and AA waiting on numbers more than any other carriers. Ya'll will get along great! :)

Since I'm not a 100% sure what that is, I don't think we do.

Probably basically the same stuff called different things. :)

People have to justify their desks, you know. :cool:

7576FO, while I've flown with some real characters over the years at AA, they've been few and far between (and I was on the Bus, which had more than its share). That CA sounds like a real tool. Did you talk to Professional Standards?

Oh, and RE waiting for the numbers: we've gotten waaaay better in the last 3 or 4 years. The vast majority of the time I get mine as we're pushing. Miami has especially gotten better (they couldn't go anywhere but up). The only time in the last few months I've had to wait significantly was in Seattle (on intrabase tdy to domestic). That operation is just short of incompetent.

I have seen an improvement at AA out of ATL. There was a time when it was bad enough that ATL ground wouldn't let ramp release AA flights until they got their numbers.

CRM
 

There are a few ******** non CRM guys on the bus, all the 767 guys are laid back and ask for an input. On the bus, guy is flying .80, bumpy as hell, I spin it back to .76 or .78 whatever the turb speed is on bus. You should have seen his face.

Another tried to fly through a red cell on the radar, yep, I just call ATC and say I have lightening 12 o'clock, need a vector.

If you have a concern you need to say something to get it on the recorder, then take whatever action is necessary.

I see two things you did that that would antagonize almost any captain, including you someday: 1) you apparently just spun back his speed without maybe suggesting he may want to slow down first. Excuse me?! Better CRM would have been to suggest that "maybe we should slow down because it's pretty bumpy". Give the guy a chance to make the move on his own. Hell, I'm a captain of MY airplane, and that's the type of suggestion I would make of a first officer during his/her leg. It's just damn rude to spin it down when it's not your leg.
2) Concerning the red cell, did you first suggest that maybe you should ask for a left or right heading away from the cell? If so, did he just ignore you, or offer up a reason why he was planning to penetrate the cell?

CRM goes both ways. You know that. Work as a TEAM. Your actions, at least the way you've described them, strike me as the actions of someone who feels he knows it all, and has to act as the real captain onboard your jet.

No buddy, he was worried about a 30/7 problem for his next trip, a commuter, plain and simple. Crap was flying everywhere. I used the words "bumpy as hell." If you want to be a stupid captain, I will treat you like a stupid captain, everything is recorded on the bus. My bad for leaving that out.

The red cell, he had a meeting with his wife, anniversary, and was in a rush to get home. I did ask him to go around the cell, he said NO.

I was just trying to give 7576FO a couple examples of a few situations here. Didn't want to write a book with all the details. In his example the captain said NO to his request, my point, like his in hindsight, is I would have asked anyway.

Called get-home-itis sometimes.

These are few and far between incidents. 99.999% of the time things run smoothly.

Yes, thanks guys.

I still learn something every trip. I try to be diplomatic. I should have just keyed the mic while I was Flying pilot and said "Did someone say ILS OTS?"

My diplomacy isn't always correct.

I just always thought ?'s are free

If there's a ? always ask.

But, sometimes (I) want to let the PM Pilot monitoring do the radio work.

"No" shouldn't be a valid answer.

AA is long overdue for some CRM. Some of the worse comm skills I've seen in my whole career have been at AA.

Out of MIA we have a great culture where the FO speaks up. Especially in South America or the Carib.

Through these door pass the best trained crews in the WORLD!

I actually enjoy and learn quite a bit from those HF classes. They've gotten a lot better over the years. I remember back around 2005, they were showing videos of all of the incidents /accidents AA had during our bad streak in an effort to "sober us up".... that was BS. Nowadays it is a good class. Just went through it last week and came out having learned a few good things.

I suspect AA is pretty much like most other airlines out there, just a few cultural differences but overall the cockpits are run very CRM-friendly. 99.9% of CAs I fly with are very good at delegating and using the crew concept, making sure we both agree on everything. Of course there is always that 1% but all airlines have them.

Looks like it wil change for the better now with the USAir culture mixing in.

Haha yea my friend sent me a picture or that. I said " that's why you're standing outside!"

Get over yourselves

Doesn't Delta have/had that sign at their school house too? Agreed, it is unnecessary.

Eh, I've always liked that sign. I've never felt it was arrogant. It's not directed at other companies, it's just a little 'pick me up' for guys who find themselves once again shlepping their bags through those doors to the waiting tedium inside. I mean, it goes without saying that, unless you're mentally challenged, you won't think that AA training is magically better than anyone else's.

Don't forget your WARTS & GNATS !!

Nope.

Comair did, though.

Ok now you see what we have been talking about over here. Many of these guys think they are captains and while I expect or rather insist that people speak up, you can see the east way is just do it because they either were captains at one point or they are entitled to be one now! I would have preferred that a voice had said " there is lighting 12 oclock what do you think? Get us a vector is what I think and thanks cause I did not see it!!! Mod chop here you comfortable with that .80? The buzz word was "you comfortable".

WD at AWA

One guy on a webboard=the east way. Real men of genius. Plus, he explained his actions, adding more information. Have you ever flown with an east pilot?

Fortunately the ****heads in the 75/767 left seat are the minority however they are more than likely buds with the chief or are check airman, or at least that is the way it worked in ORD. One CKA in particular has a sever Napoleonic complex and loves to ride FO's as I witnessed on a couple of international trips. When asked the FO being checked just shrugged it off, pretty big of him if you ask me. Flew with a captain that actually complied with my stupid, out of sequence request for flap retraction on approach to ORD, at the end of a very long international trip. It was obviously a mistake on my part but instead of questioning me he retracted the flaps, laughed and then asked what I was doing, making me feel embarrassed at first but ****ed off later. But again you are dealing with a guy with an air of arrogance that is obvious to all, yet another bud of the chief.

The training department at US does a really good job, and the TEM model, use, and instruction are VERY integrated, as the previous poster said. It works pretty darn well. That said, US has its 1%-ers, same as any other airline, that do stupid stuff like has been mentioned by posters in this thread, US, AA, and otherwise.

Don't paint the whole airline on the actions of a few tools. On the whole, I find our pilots at US to be a safe, reasonably efficient, and CRM-conscious group.

We used to laugh at the overabundance of the TEM chart but really, most of us use it. If I see a guy getting overloaded I will joke with him and ask if he's "in the green". Makes him feel a lot more comfortable saying "no, I néed moe time".

Years ago at AWA we had a couple of guys who were PHDs in psychology. They set up this elaborate CRM course. We would do a CRM class with the FAs and they would do a profile of each of us based on some questions and then they would assign you an animal code. most pilots were Panthers, F/As were mostly Dolphins, and I forget the other two. It was pretty amusing because if you knew the person it was spot on.

You know the answer to that and why so lets not get started in on that lack of honor thing. There is not much in the way of explanation needed after he stated what he did. Now as for one guy on a board lets further discuss the east way. I see tons of f/o's in the east dressed in capt jackets but sitting right seat. Oh did you know that AA does NOT allow that?? Only those who are current capts will be allowed to dress as capts. That will not go over to well in the east camp but I kind of think that no one really cares how they feel.

WD at AWA

I was at Comair for 7 years. I don't recall ever seeing that.

Dude, you have a small penis don't you?

Must be a legend, then. I had always heard they had a sign like that going into ops in cvg. Must be only AA. :)

It is very possible that I had my blinders on.

I am often wrong but never in doubt!

Wow. I knew AA had some problems, but I didn't realize there was even a basic breakdown of CRM amongst some crew. Where you coming in from at 4:40 a.m. ?

For the life of me I cannot understand why this bothers you guys. It is one of more bizarre issues you guys have.

It was allowed over here because years ago captains often were displaced to the right seat in the winter. There was no need to keep different jackets and the company doesn't pay for our uniforms. It has nothing to do with ego.

If it wasn't allowed here, it wouldn't be happening. But it is allowed.

You guys have such chips on your shoulders. We have enough issues without making one out of what should be a non-issue.

R57
That's one of those things that if you have to explain, he wouldn't understand.
For generations (which he may not even remember) the fourth stripe (at all major airlines) was more than just sitting in the seat, it was EARNED by not just waiting for seniority but by PROVING ones self capable of command.
Yea it sounds a bit dramatic but part of the reason our profession has been dumped on so badly is our own disrespect for what we do.
I suppose he would be happier if displaced Captains wore black athletic shoes, walked around the terminal with ear buds and a backpack!
How low can we go???
CG

I could care less to be completely honest because they are all jr to me! What I am telling you is that at AA it is a no go item!

Now one need look no further to why AAA was such a failure. Training events for seasonal displacements????? In any event no need to rehash all the things that everyone already knows. We need to get ready for the new beginning and you all need to ready yourselves the inevitable, arbitration results are final and binding!

WD at AWA

Like I explained to relay, at AA its a no go item ie they dont care about any of that. I have read the memo which dates back a few years. It states that if you are operating as an f/o you will dress as one. Now I do believe that at one point AA was acceptable what you are speaking however something took place with the Reno air guys that ended it.

WD at AWA

Guys. 7576 is a great dude and a friend, and he's frustrated like all of us at the direction our once great airline has taken the last 10 years. As such, his posts sometimes reflect that frustration and he tends to vent.

I can assure you his incident was extremely isolated. AA's cockpit culture is up to par with all of the US major airlines, CRM included. I am willing to bet that each and every one of you on this board has flown with a CA at one time or another who was "CRM-challenged." They exist at every airline and it makes for a rough trip.

AA's Human Factors course has dramatically improved over the past few years. Believe it or not, AA was the airline all others looked up to back in the 80s/early 90s as the most standardized cockpits in the industry (hence the name, Sky Nazis.) Even Delta came to AA when they were revamping their cockpit culture after their unfortunate streak of accidents. That is still very much reflected today, and I walk out of Human Factors every 9 months having learned many new things.

Where AA tends to stumble (although it's slowly changing) is in believing they have the best system, and not being receptive to outside ideas/influence. This used to include rejecting Boeing's recommendations and using AA's own "expertise" with regards to aircraft manuals. Again, that has changed, our manuals are now almost 100% Boeing procedures. Other examples include ancestral worship tendencies such as Captains making PAs while taxiing. We are hopeful USAir's influence will change that as well.

Overall, we run a good cockpit and have a very experienced, laid back pilot group, I'm proud to say.

Coming back at 4am is commonplace with Deep South flights returning to Miami. We have quite a few flights that arrive at that time.

aa73 gets me! He is right. I'm am venting and a little dramatic at times.

"aa73 is 10 years younger, 3"s taller and a much better dancer!"

We DO NOT have CRM at AA. That is a fact. While the HF human factors class is improving, it is BUNK!

On the 777 everyone i've flown with except 2, was great and exhibited fantastic CRM.



What aa73 does not know, is that for the last 4 weeks I've been working very hard via phone calls and emails to get IOE for new International co-pilots to South America. Right now the company only gives them a 2 day LAX domestic trip and then a 3 London trip. That's it, they are signed off for Carib and South America.
I've taken this to the VP Ops Chief Pilot TWICE, 4 check airmen, pro std's, 2 cheif pilots in MIA, training committees and ground school. And i'm not done.
I've also volunteered to audit the Int'l ground school ON MY DAYS OFF which would entail, non-reving to DFW and footing the hotel bill myself.

In addition i've posted a CRM'ish TO data chart for 777 pilots on our pilot message board.

I don't just post to complain or vent. I do something about it. I've actually suggested since we got rid of the 500' call "On speed, sink 700' "
that perhaps a "Spooled" call might work. Of course that was shot down quickly (pun intended).

I pass on Jepp issues to the Flt Office, and have even had the chiefs ask me to call IT for Jepps.
In 2006 I volunteer for Boeing and Jeppesen in Seattle to fly a 767-400 sim for the moving map technology ON MY DAYS OFF.

BTW back then in Nov 2006 estimates on a spread sheet I saw showed Jan 2007 EFB class 2 (II) savings for 2007 $21 million, too bad it wasn't implemented until Dec. 2012. Thats when i got my IPAD.

Trying to combine a CRM program, I once interrupted the HF class to show a UTUBE vid of a 757 takeoff and fly a downwind with the Capt side window open.

I've made numerous calls to Fatigue lady to try to help pilots on a fleet that I don't even fly anymore.


I'm posting and exchanging ideas and "how it works" reserve procedures wiht USAir pilots to hopefully improve our JBCA in the future.

I encourage ANY AND ALL USAir pilots to message me and ask any questions.



So, I hope that wasn't too Defensive, but I do things, I don't just criticize.
I'm not a person that wants Credit or my name on some hierarchy graph that they use so often at AA.

I am a simple ex-commuter pilot trying to improve things for the next guy.

7576

and for the ladies...Yes, 7576FO has all his hair, and yes you could get your fingers stuck in it...if you wanted to.

and we're not talking back hair! Up Top!