What I believe I express as belief and for other uncertainties I make an effort to use the words like may, can, could or should. However, when something is a fact I refer to it as such. Me personally, I would rather learn from being wrong than falsely believe I wm correct. Would you specifically share what fact(s) I have wrong and why? PM is fine.


Okay, so... What AE ALPA did to TWA LCC pilots is quite a confusing, but dramatic read. Yes, APA ensured that the AA acquisition of TWA assets disadvantaged TWA pilots and highly discounted their seniority. However, AE ALPA took it a step further and sued to have all TWA LLC (AA's holding company for former TWA) pilots regarded as new hires. Pilots who were on property at AA before AE's 2007 LaRocco arbitration suit were spared.

• "[American Eagle] ALPA filed a grievance … asserting that all former TWA pilots were new hires… Nicolau, October 18, 2009.”
  
• "Arbitrator LaRocco later ruled, "pilots who did not commence active employment at AA in conjunction with merger are equivalent to new hires... LaRocco, May 11, 2007.
  
• “... No former TWA pilots were even designated as New Hires until the May 2007. Nicolau,
  October 18, 2009.”

APA was a nail in the coffin of TWA seniority, but APA did viciously fight to protect TWA pilots from AE ALPA. The AE flow issue is very complicated, but I think most people misunderstand the storyline because we mostly hear only a present day complaints. We must start at the beginning to understand the AE Flow issues that ultimately stripped TWA LCC pilots completely of their seniority:

APA never wanted Eagle to have Regional Jets at all, but the White House forced APA to negotiate an agreement with American, American Eagle and AE ALPA that outsourced jet flying. The deal was negotiated in record days. I the event of a furlough, pilots on the American Airline seniority list retained full ownership of the Captains seats in those planes in the event of a furloughs. In exchange, AE permanently gained the FO seats in these jets and temporarily controlled the Captains seats so long as there was never an American furlough.

The agreement that AE ALPA negotiated with APA, American and American Eagle did not prohibit TWA LLC pilots from flowing down and this infuriated AE pilots to the point that a grievance was filed. Prior to this AE pilots were greatly upset that TWA LCC pilots had been transferred from TWA LCC to American as this delayed the flow-through of American Eagle pilots. In response, AE ALPA sued to have TWA LCC pilots regarded as new hires. AE ALPA won the suit and the Occupational Seniority of TWA LLC pilots was reset over night. These could be just a few reasons why many some TWA and APA pilots may collectively look down on AE pilots.

It's a dog eat dog word, but I like Papa Johns pepperoni thin crust myself. :o

Bottom line, you don't wanna go to court.

As one of the more senior third list pilots, I completely disagree. When hired, we knew we would eventually slot in behind everyone when the dust settled from the East - West war. Nothing has changed.

Well, we've at least made SOME progress. You now use the term "AE ALPA" for blame instead of AE line pilots, so that's a start. Those are nice snippets, but misleading without the context of why that dispute occurred, especially since if you read them they are out of logical order. You've got La Rocco making a statement in 2009 first and then saying Nicolau "LATER ruled.....", except that's two years EARLIER. It's no wonder you don't understand the WHOLE dispute. That's fine for you, but you're misleading everyone on this forum because of it. It occurred because the 4-part agreement was very ambiguous and had been repeatedly abused by some of the parties for maximum self advantage prior to that and almost always to the detriment of AE pilots. It stipulated a process for dispute when any of the 4 parties disagreed with interpretation. The agreement offered furlough protection for pilots FURLOUGHED FROM AA and not another carrier (those pilots on furlough at the time of AA's acquisition of TWA's assets), yet APA wanted to interpret that they were one and the same. AE ALPA believed that if that were the case, then AE pilots should get an equivalent number of AA new-hire positions even though hiring had stopped. The agreement was intended to benefit both sides equally. APA wasn't interested in that and AMR wasn't either. A grievance resulted and a neutral third-party agreed with AE ALPA and that allowed another 150 AE pilots new-hire positions at the very bottom of the AA list.

How did it ultimately work out by 2010 ?

Approximately 150 AE pilots were on AA property directly benefitting from the agreement and approximately 450 AA/TWA pilots (perhaps more as I don't have the exact number handy) were in AE captains seats benefitting from the agreement. One could say AE pilots STILL got the shaft, eh ?



APA WAS the nail in the coffin of their TWA seniority, but it was AE ALPA protecting the rights of AE pilots which had been repeatedly trampled on for many years PRIOR to that. Clearly YOU don't understand the issues as demonstrated above and have let your TWA past muddy up any consideration that you aren't the only victims. The TWA pilots seniority was interpreted by APA and that concept of what that seniority was had nothing to do with the flow thru per se. By 2009, MORE TWA pilots were on AE property than AE pilots were on AA property, so who got "stripped" ?

Thank You. I'm glad you freely admit that you feel AE pilots were considered subservient and inferior in their own aircraft at the expense of others including the "vicious" defenders of TWA pilots. It gives a little more insight into what WE had to deal with and actually for those here on how YOU see things, which again, is hideously biased and quite misinformed. I certainly hope you're not making your financial evaluations with this much bias and error. The RJ's at Eagle as per the agreement were owned by AMR Eagle, Inc. and ALL pilots were represented by AE ALPA, not APA, so that interpretation is simply erroneous opinion. Those seats weren't "owned" by APA. If they were, they would have been the reps for those AA/TWA pilots that flew them. They weren't. They did try to screw AE pilots out of them and even their flow to AA though after AE ALPA stuck up for the rights of AE pilots.


Your first sentence is the interpretational dispute. AE ALPA would have agreed to that IF they had been given an equal benefit for the increase risk of displacement (there were many more TWA pilots being furloughed then AA natives), but the others balked. All they wanted was a FAIR deal as opposed to the indentured servitude you confirm was the reality. AE pilots were not upset at any such thing regarding TWA pilots. The thing that stopped the flow was 9/11 and the AA furlough which forced the reverse of the agreement. If PILOTS FURLOUGHED FROM AA (Section IV.) flowed back, so be it. If NOW pilots furloughed FROM TWA were included, fine, but let's maintain an equal relationshiop between sacrifice and benefit. That was all they were seeking. It had nothing to do with going after poor TWA pilots, like everyone else supposedly has.

The arbitrators agreed.

The "occupational seniority" of TWA pilots was established by Supp CC, not AE or any flow thru related dispute. The dispute and award was not seniority per se, but a RIGHT OF INCLUSION in the flow back process. Those who flowed back to Eagle from TWA flowed back under the same protocol as AA natives with the exception they kept their TWA DOH for pay purposes and were paid more then AA flow back natives and actually did BETTER then AA natives did in the flow back both in compensation and in percentages of AE jobs acquired and yet you claim TWA pilots are still victims not only from AE ALPA, but from some supposed gang of actual AE line pilots. Jesus, Joseph and Mary, you are ALL over the place with your interpretations, reasoning and claims on this situation. I LIVED IT, you didn't.

Wow, I am speechless. You deserve a beer or two.

No, AE pilots are associated with their union's actions just as East pilots are liable for USAPA.

It does not matter what order you read them in, that just happens to be the order I pasted them in. I highly suggest you read where these quotes came from in Nicolau's and LaRocco's awards.

The TWA LLC pilots who flowed down had already transferred to being American pilots when they flowed down to AE RJs. They were transitioned from TWA LLC, flew for American for a short time and then were furloughed into the seats that the White House forced APA to give AE.

This is how the majority of nativeAmerican and TWA APA pilots see it.

To a lessor degree than TWA pilots, AE pilots were a victim of a shrinking economy brought about by things like the North American Free Trade Agreement, The General Agreement on Trade and Tariff , & Trans-Pacific Partnership. Instead of wasting time on this forum and watching The Super Bowl we should be protesting these agreements.

Still, AE pilots benefited from the government override of the American pilot's exclusive working agreement with American, which outsourced RJ flying to AE. This was a huge benefit to all the AE turbo-prop pilots who experienced the jet aircraft growth and Turbo-Jet PIC. Many American pilots feel that AE pilots may have benefitted from taking jobs away from American pilots.

This could be why APA fought AE ALPA so viciously. Legacy TWA and American pilots seem to remember this as their history.



Yes, AE ALPA was protecting their pilots "rights," which resulted in TWA pilots being labeled as "New Hires" when they transferred from furlough status of AMR's TWA LLC.

Some feel that TWA pilots, unlike AE pilots, transitioned to American with assets and recall rights.



I never said or inferred that, but I believe that many American pilots may feel this way.

This is not complicated. In the event of a furlough, pilots of APA owned full rights to those AE RJ left seats.

No, that is also literally what happened. It is factual history.



That was my personal experience as well. I'm sure all Piedmont, PSA, Endeavor, Comair, and ExpressJet pilots would agree that indentured servitude is the reality of any regional pilot relative to major airline pilots.

The former TWA LLC pilots who flowed down to RJs were American pilots at the time.

Much like Silvers latest ruling, the arbitrators agreed with AE, but they did not give AE pilots much of any requested relief.


I claim? No, this not how most APA pilots see it. APA's position has always disagreed with AE ALPA on these subjects and with much of what you just wrote.

Flybywire 44, here's what I have experienced at AA since I showed up on property back in October - open arms and a very welcoming attitude from EVERY AA pilot I've met and worked with. Consummate professionals, all. MOST stay away from these forums due to the vitriolic back and forth between a few members who proclaim to represent the rest of us at these airlines.

You can claim all sorts of anger and animosity toward us, but I have yet to see it. This is the truth.

There are 15,000 pilots between the various airlines that make up US and AA. There are about 10 of you here that constantly argue and bicker about this and that. As much as you guys think you represent the majority of us, you don't. When I occasionally refer to "forums" most just roll their eyes and laugh. At you guys. The internet know it alls.

Get on with your life. Let go of the anger. Jeez.

AA Remaining furloughee analysis?
 

Awesome feedback 450kts,

This is a detail oriented effort as there are many facets to these subjects. I'm not personally attached to these subjects so why would I be angry about them?

Please, do not mistake a lack of context for anger. For his part, Eaglefly does a good job of objectively posting his views without anger.

I think you're wasting your time. I've now realized I've wasted mine as well. I could dispute his opinions on the issues point-by-point, but.......well, that would be pointless. He believes what he wants to and that's not going to change what those of us who lived it know and those of us who where directly involved know about the timelines, the arguments, the facts and even the personalities of those involved.

Time to move on.

There are two sides to every story.

APA vs AE ALPA and East vs West for example.

These issues are worth exploring, which is why Eaglefly may continue discussing the Nicolau award in other threads.