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Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   American (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/american/)
-   -   USAPA coast amendment fails (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/american/80469-usapa-coast-amendment-fails.html)

stamps 03-18-2014 03:47 PM
post deleted

A321 03-18-2014 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by stamps (Post 1605247)
So, for a new hire who isn't interesting in jumping into this p*ssing match but is very interested in the progress of the integration, what's the bottom line?
Let's see if I can summarize this.

USAPA and APA agreed to an MOU for the merger before the merger. Part of the MOU said that the two would agree to a "seniority integration protocol" agreement (essentially a document as to how seniority list discussions were going to go IF the merger happened).

APA insisted that they have the ability to unilaterally change language in the MOU after they become the single union (could be this year)... and USAPA didn't like this... it took away the US pilot's ability to adequately oversee seniority integrations.

The MOU also stated that the seniority lists would come together in a "fair and equitable" manner, per McCaskill-Bond legislation (which was written to prevent another TWA/AA staple job).

However, the wolf in sheep's clothing is that the McCaskill-Bond legislation is thrown out the window once the two pilot groups have one union (presumably APA) and the union's internal merger policy supersedes. An internal merger policy can be changed at any time...you can see where this is going.

This is how it has been explained to me. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

US Airways And American And The Elephants In The*Room - Aviation Articles and Commentary - Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines

http://everfaith.files.wordpress.com...s-clothing.jpg

flybywire44 03-18-2014 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1605109)
Usapa will be gone and control nothing. The Mou you voted on was set up for the apa to takeover:

Mou paragraph 5:
"US Airways, and is successors, if any, shall continue to recognize and treat with USAPA as representatives of the pilots employed by US Airways until another representative for the pilot craft or class is certified by the National Mediation Board (the "NMB")."
This is why USAPA is suing to have a Merger Protocol Agreement that preserves our Merger Committee and it's respective leadership, which will as now be limited to four officers.


Originally Posted by A321 (Post 1605256)
Let's see if I can summarize this.

USAPA and APA agreed to an MOU for the merger before the merger. Part of the MOU said that the two would agree to a "seniority integration protocol" agreement (essentially a document as to how seniority list discussions were going to go IF the merger happened).

APA insisted that they have the ability to unilaterally change language in the MOU after they become the single union (could be this year)... and USAPA didn't like this... it took away the US pilot's ability to adequately oversee seniority integrations.

The MOU also stated that the seniority lists would come together in a "fair and equitable" manner, per McCaskill-Bond legislation (which was written to prevent another TWA/AA staple job).

However, the wolf in sheep's clothing is that the McCaskill-Bond legislation is thrown out the window once the two pilot groups have one union (presumably APA) and the union's internal merger policy supersedes. An internal merger policy can be changed at any time...you can see where this is going.

This is how it has been explained to me. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

US Airways And American And The Elephants In The*Room - Aviation Articles and Commentary - Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines

http://everfaith.files.wordpress.com...s-clothing.jpg
Correct.

stamps 03-18-2014 04:38 PM

Let's see if I can summarize this.

USAPA and APA agreed to an MOU for the merger before the merger. Part of the MOU said that the two would agree to a "seniority integration protocol" agreement (essentially a document as to how seniority list discussions were going to go IF the merger happened).

APA insisted that they have the ability to unilaterally change language in the MOU after they become the single union (could be this year)... and USAPA didn't like this... it took away the US pilot's ability to adequately oversee seniority integrations.

The MOU also stated that the seniority lists would come together in a "fair and equitable" manner, per McCaskill-Bond legislation (which was written to prevent another TWA/AA staple job).

However, the wolf in sheep's clothing is that the McCaskill-Bond legislation is thrown out the window once the two pilot groups have one union (presumably APA) and the union's internal merger policy supersedes. An internal merger policy can be changed at any time...you can see where this is going.

This is how it has been explained to me. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

US Airways And American And The Elephants In The*Room - Aviation Articles and Commentary - Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines

http://everfaith.files.wordpress.com...s-clothing.jpg
Thanks. Hate to ask such an obvious question, but that was helpful.

cactiboss 03-18-2014 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by stamps (Post 1605287)
Thanks. Hate to ask such an obvious question, but that was helpful.
He told you complete bs. Usapa agreed to have a single union and as usual are going back on their word . This about the east screwing the west, they are terrified the west is given a voice.
PS. A federal judge in az told them they could not participate once we were a single carrier

757HI 03-18-2014 05:36 PM
A321,
East and west will be run over roughshod by the APA. The issue for US pilots is the pecking order of our side.

Your point is not lost on any west pilot. As a west pilot, I do not consider the APA to be a white knight, but rather a dark horse.

Originally Posted by A321 (Post 1605256)
Let's see if I can summarize this.

USAPA and APA agreed to an MOU for the merger before the merger. Part of the MOU said that the two would agree to a "seniority integration protocol" agreement (essentially a document as to how seniority list discussions were going to go IF the merger happened).

APA insisted that they have the ability to unilaterally change language in the MOU after they become the single union (could be this year)... and USAPA didn't like this... it took away the US pilot's ability to adequately oversee seniority integrations.

The MOU also stated that the seniority lists would come together in a "fair and equitable" manner, per McCaskill-Bond legislation (which was written to prevent another TWA/AA staple job).

However, the wolf in sheep's clothing is that the McCaskill-Bond legislation is thrown out the window once the two pilot groups have one union (presumably APA) and the union's internal merger policy supersedes. An internal merger policy can be changed at any time...you can see where this is going.

This is how it has been explained to me. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

US Airways And American And The Elephants In The*Room - Aviation Articles and Commentary - Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines

http://everfaith.files.wordpress.com...s-clothing.jpg

fosters 03-18-2014 05:52 PM
Any guesses to what will happen with the new hires after the merger? With AA hiring at the same time how will that factor in? Everyone assumes that the folks hired after the Dec merger close date will be slotted in by DOH but is that a certainty, or is APA looking to staple pretty much everyone on the US side below their own folks?

Any thoughts on if this integration will even go thru at all? They ran the east-west separate for years, closing in on a decade. Heck if this merger hadn't of happened, would they have kept east-west separate forever? Almost seems that way.

stamps 03-18-2014 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1605312)
He told you complete bs. Usapa agreed to have a single union and as usual are going back on their word . This about the east screwing the west, they are terrified the west is given a voice.
PS. A federal judge in az told them they could not participate once we were a single carrier
So you're saying that the "evil empire" (east/USAPA), who cared so much about protecting their relative seniority that they were willing to decertify ALPA, renig on binding arbitration, and operate as a separate pilot group for a lower hourly rate than west pilots, "agreed to have a single union" (APA) and thereby no substantial influence in the pending seniority integration?

I'm new and probably clueless, but that dog don't hunt. What did I miss?

CanoePilot 03-18-2014 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by fosters (Post 1605349)
Any guesses to what will happen with the new hires after the merger? With AA hiring at the same time how will that factor in? Everyone assumes that the folks hired after the Dec merger close date will be slotted in by DOH but is that a certainty, or is APA looking to staple pretty much everyone on the US side below their own folks?

Any thoughts on if this integration will even go thru at all? They ran the east-west separate for years, closing in on a decade. Heck if this merger hadn't of happened, would they have kept east-west separate forever? Almost seems that way.
That's a possibility, the "snapshot date" was never decided on and there are rumors there may not even be a snapshot date.

cactiboss 03-18-2014 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by stamps (Post 1605370)
So you're saying that the "evil empire" (east/USAPA), who cared so much about protecting their relative seniority that they were willing to decertify ALPA, renig on binding arbitration, and operate as a separate pilot group for a lower hourly rate than west pilots, "agreed to have a single union" (APA) and thereby no substantial influence in the pending seniority integration?

I'm new and probably clueless, but that dog don't hunt. What did I miss?
That dog don't hunt? Maybe you should read the mou and then Silvers findings. The east has done nothing but harm themselves from not freezing their retirement to booting alpa, nothing has changed.


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