|
In black and white:
http://i.imgur.com/hsYZh6q.png http://i.imgur.com/zn4Db2C.png We all internally have access to the Nov '14 bid so I won't post it for comparison. |
Thanks for the help to the elderly. I'll be standing by for a retraction and apology from cacti. Oh, I crack myself up.
|
Originally Posted by R57 relay
(Post 1737162)
Thanks for the help to the elderly.
|
Originally Posted by R57 relay
(Post 1737109)
Cacti won't acknowledge it. Here ya go. If the east had been staffed like the west we would have had about 300 more pilots. Curiously, about the number recalled by the time Nic came out with his list.
From the Nicolau opinion and award. Available to anyone at cactuspilot.com for those that don't believe me. "As of the merger date, there were also differences in staffing, differences that remain. As of January 1, 2007, the aircraft and staffing figures were: US Airways America West Equip. AIC Staffing Equip. AIC Staffing A330 9 23.11 NA NA NA B767 10 21.50 NA NA NA B757 34 10.09 B757 12 14.75 A320 102 10.70 A320 94 12.32 B737 69 9.01 B737 27 12.07 EMB 2 19.50" On May 19, 2005, US Airways and America West Airlines announced that they would merge, taking the name US Airways. Both pilot groups were represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, which has a Merger Policy governing the integration of pilot seniority lists.There were also differences in the financial condition of the two carriers. For a short time, America West had been in bankruptcy but emerged in 1994 as a low cost carrier (LCC) operating out of hubs in Phoenix and Las Vegas. US Airways had also declared bankruptcy, not once but twice. And it was still in bankruptcy at the time of the merger and was unprepared to present a reorganization plan for its emergence. Despite these differences, to be detailed later, it is clear from the evidence that the more financially able needed the other and that both have benefited financially from the acquisition.US Airways At the time of the US Air/America West merger, US Airways had a grand total of 5098 pilots on its seniority list, 1691 of which (33%) were on furlough. America West As of the merger, it had 1894 pilots on its list. All, however, were active and less than 200 had spent time onfurlough and then for relatively short periods during the early and mid-90s, at which point hiring resumed with 1131 additional pilots added to the list. The Conclusion As evidenced by Captain Brucia's Concurring and Dissenting Opinion, attached hereto, he disagrees with this aspect of the Award. His view is that at a minimum consideration should be given to those US Airways pilots already recalled; that treatment of them as active pilots consistent with their present status would serve to recognize the substantial time they had already invested in their airline. In the majority's view, this gives weight to post-merger expectations rather than pre-merger expectations, contrary to what ALPA policy foresees. In so doing it fails to recognize the prospects the US Airways pilots faced before the merger; including the reduction of the active pilot work force from 5500 to close to 3000, the sharp reduction in the size of the fleet since the 1990's; the absence of recalls though many active pilots were retiring; the successive bankruptcies and the inability to successfully emerge from that condition. When all that is considered, in the majority's view, it is far more appropriate to combine those who brought jobs to the merger, particularly when the protection of career expectations is of such overriding concern. This is not to say, of course, that this merger is designed or should be thought of as a model for others that may follow. As stated at the beginning, each case does turn on its own facts. As a consequence, different facts may produce different results. Here, a majority is of the opinion that the facts of this case justify our conclusion. |
Originally Posted by Frisco727
(Post 1737197)
The award is the place to go to fact check. The boss has some bad numbers. Some other facts and the bottom line from a very long document:
On May 19, 2005, US Airways and America West Airlines announced that they would merge, taking the name US Airways. Both pilot groups were represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, which has a Merger Policy governing the integration of pilot seniority lists.There were also differences in the financial condition of the two carriers. For a short time, America West had been in bankruptcy but emerged in 1994 as a low cost carrier (LCC) operating out of hubs in Phoenix and Las Vegas. US Airways had also declared bankruptcy, not once but twice. And it was still in bankruptcy at the time of the merger and was unprepared to present a reorganization plan for its emergence. Despite these differences, to be detailed later, it is clear from the evidence that the more financially able needed the other and that both have benefited financially from the acquisition.US Airways At the time of the US Air/America West merger, US Airways had a grand total of 5098 pilots on its seniority list, 1691 of which (33%) were on furlough. America West As of the merger, it had 1894 pilots on its list. All, however, were active and less than 200 had spent time onfurlough and then for relatively short periods during the early and mid-90s, at which point hiring resumed with 1131 additional pilots added to the list. The Conclusion As evidenced by Captain Brucia's Concurring and Dissenting Opinion, attached hereto, he disagrees with this aspect of the Award. His view is that at a minimum consideration should be given to those US Airways pilots already recalled; that treatment of them as active pilots consistent with their present status would serve to recognize the substantial time they had already invested in their airline. In the majority's view, this gives weight to post-merger expectations rather than pre-merger expectations, contrary to what ALPA policy foresees. In so doing it fails to recognize the prospects the US Airways pilots faced before the merger; including the reduction of the active pilot work force from 5500 to close to 3000, the sharp reduction in the size of the fleet since the 1990's; the absence of recalls though many active pilots were retiring; the successive bankruptcies and the inability to successfully emerge from that condition. When all that is considered, in the majority's view, it is far more appropriate to combine those who brought jobs to the merger, particularly when the protection of career expectations is of such overriding concern. This is not to say, of course, that this merger is designed or should be thought of as a model for others that may follow. As stated at the beginning, each case does turn on its own facts. As a consequence, different facts may produce different results. Here, a majority is of the opinion that the facts of this case justify our conclusion. Looking at that, we have about 8% more line pilots today than we did the day the merger was announced. That while flying about 50 fewer hulls. I believe the difference is proper staffing, more IROs on the 330s, and training float. The last paragraph you quoted is one of the mysteries to me about Nicolau. By the time he issued his award, that had already been proven incorrect. We recalled 300 pilots while shedding 50 hulls. |
Originally Posted by R57 relay
(Post 1737282)
In defense of cacti(I know, it surprises me too), there is a bit of apples and oranges going on. What is "active"? If you notice in the above Nicolau doesn't use the word active for US pilots, he gives the total and furloughed. For AWA pilots, he says that they were all active. So I have to come to the conclusion that by "active" he means just not furloughed, as AWA had guys out on medical, MIL, etc. But we have a different definition of active because those out on medical, LOA, MIL and management are not active line pilots. If you are looking at total numbers of a seniority list it's hard to get an idea of the butts in the seat without going through the whole list. The east has a lot of medicals. But using the bid gives a pretty clear indication of what is available to the line pilot. I would imagine that we also carry a larger number of management and training pilots.
Looking at that, we have about 8% more line pilots today than we did the day the merger was announced. That while flying about 50 fewer hulls. I believe the difference is proper staffing, more IROs on the 330s, and training float. The last paragraph you quoted is one of the mysteries to me about Nicolau. By the time he issued his award, that had already been proven incorrect. We recalled 300 pilots while shedding 50 hulls. |
Originally Posted by Frisco727
(Post 1737410)
The numbers did not look right and you can't argue with the bid Drizzle posted. Between that and the info in the award, it's the facts that back your argument or any one else for that matter. The who's "active" only complicates what is already very complicated. A lot to sort out.
The difference is, I was on that side and living it, cacti wasn't. |
DEC 15th is scheduled for the mini-arb throwdown. (For those interested in the present.)
|
Originally Posted by Cactusone
(Post 1738962)
DEC 15th is scheduled for the mini-arb throwdown. (For those interested in the present.)
|
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
(Post 1738977)
I for one am looking forward to the Preliminary Arbitration Panel's fair and equitable resolution, and the the SLI Arbitration Panel's fair and equitable award as well.
|
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:31 PM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands