$$$ can blind some to just about anything. :cool:

Yes I do consider it slight given the fact of what's being given up. Why do you think Parker wants no min day + hbt + intl/dom all in one. Another thing coming soon is pbs as well. The money you think you will make extra will disappear due to sitting on trips and in hotels not getting paid. Even 25k is maybe 1400 a month you'll see in your pocket at best. Just be patient for parity.

In min day is so important, and the company values it at $85 mil over the course of the contract, reduce the pay rates by $85 mil and ask for min day.

Done.

$85 mil over 5 years over 15,000 pilots is around $1100 a year net wage loss, or roughly $1.25/hr. The senior CAs would bear the brunt of the wage reduction anyway.

APA should've done that when they did their LBFO, because they knew how much min day was important to the pilot group.

The apa has sent out numerous charts showing mou pay and managements offer and delta as well as delta getting some raises. It's all been sent numerous times.

Sorry to interrupt, but I don't have time to go back through 12 pages. Does this offer have Preferential Bidding in it? I'm a Delta guy who was very much against it when PBS came to us. It did cost us a lot of jobs. Exactly how many is up for debate, but the range is anywhere from 8% to more than 15%, depending on what you want to use for parameters, because when we went to PBS, we also raised our monthly caps.

We now have a whole lot of guys who are flying right up to the FAR's, every month. That's 25 more hours, per month, than under our old 75hr. cap system. i.e. they are flying 33% MORE!

How many jobs do you think that eliminates when you multiply it out by the thousands or guys who are doing it? For every 3 guys flying 33% more, that's one less body you need.

I know that PBS was one of the sticking points in your earlier negotiations, but I haven't heard if it's still alive in this agreement, or is it fully dead?

PBS is being implemented as we type. First roll-out on the smaller fleets around fall-ish of 2015. The larger fleets will see it in early 2016.

That was an overinflated estimate of the value of min calendar day, probably based on every single lineholder working 20 days a month making 103 hours pay per month. The APA ask of min calendar day for the current proposal is beyond fair, to be viewed as a greedy proposal is shocking to me. Deltas pilot group is 2000 less pilots and their package is currently worth $2.5 billion, according to recent company quotes. That contract was signed in 2012. You're being offered a $1.7 Billion deal, and you have to spread that among 2000 more pilots. To ask for 85 million more (I bet it's not even half that) is beyond fair.

Of course it's fair, but it's not happening. Y'all need to face the facts.

So with that reality, giving up $1/hr to get the rig in there seems like a smart choice.

We are hindered by the cost neutral MTA. That is what we are fighting against.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. We are where we are and the choice now is between instant gratification and terminal invalidity or patience and relevance.

Thanks, did you also raise the monthly max flying cap?

I don't know that detail, so I'm not going to guess if they did or not. I would imagine they'd have to or they'd defeat the purpose of having PBS. Who knows at this point, I'm sure we'll find out more. Regardless of the outcome of this vote, PBS will be here to stay in about a year.

What Huey said.

Buuuut, they need the HBT and division consolidation fast to roll PBS out on sched. Without it, they'll need to revamp the process for present rules delaying PBS, unless of course Parker comes back to the table like he did at Envoy multiple times.

It's known as a "bum's rush".

Looks like a lot of us are eagerly taking the bait. :(

The first sign post on Error Blvd. (his post), is "the company values". Virtually everything the company maintains is their valuation is inflated. That's what their excuse was on the last minute rejection of Min. Calendar day and they CLEARLY are untrustworthy.

Welcome to what arbitration will be

One thing I like about PBS is, you build your own line (seniority permitting of course). Under our system (and they are all different from what I've heard) we chose the trips we want to fly AND we choose the days we want off. If you are senior, you can hold both, the best trips and the best days off.

Even if you are junior, you can usually get the days off you need for Mom and the kids, the Guard, etc. but you might have to eat some crappy trips to do it. Under our old "Line of Time" bid sheets, the lines were built by crew schedulers, without regard to consistency in days off or trips, they just built lines that fit the mold.

Even if you were the most senior pilot in your category, you might not be able to find a single pre-published line that had both the trips you want, and all the days off you need. :rolleyes: You then had to hope you could swap some trips for the days off you really need, etc.

When our PBS first runs and builds your line, there are still caps, but they could only be as high as about 82 hours. We left some loopholes open as far as swapping a low time 1-2 day trip for a high time 4-6 day trip, after the bids are awarded. That's how guys can be awarded a line with say, 77 hours initially, then they can swap up to the FAR max of 100hrs. in 28 days. :eek:

If we had kept that one loophole closed, Delta would have had to start hiring years ago, instead of just last year. There are a few other loopholes too, all of which lead to more flying, less hiring.

BUT...some pilots LOVE it and don't ever want those loopholes closed.

Pbs from a past airline for me was great and as you described above. Build your line, add or drop trips with easy, only required to fly 65 hours if I recall correctly.

It all comes down to the specific language built into it and having Union over sight when trips are built.

We don't know any of these details and probably won't for a while but I would venture to say it won't be the doom and gloom that is constantly brought up here.

Heck they make it sound worse than some of the worst regionals.

Mesa has "Caledar day pay". Just sayin..

I've talked to one of the guys working the PBS implementation. He's a line pilot and he thinks we'll like PBS once it gets up and running and everyone gets trained on how to use it...and once we absorb the "efficiencies" it'll produce. It will probably slow seniority progression a bit but with the attrition we're seeing and will see, we'll still move on up the ladder, albeit a bit slower.

I'm looking forward to PBS, honestly. Hopefully it'll make me a line holder faster. I think a lot of the crappy lines that AA sees (like the A319 in DFW...wow, those are some ugly lines) will probably get better. Those schedules are pretty inefficient and pretty much just wastes your time away from base. I've been told PBS will help "fix" that to some degree, although not to the degree that min calendar day will.

Delta PBS guarantees a contractual 13 days off in a 30 day bid period and 14 days off in a 31 day bid period. At AA, PBS will only be required to honor your 10 day off contractual minimum. That's the reason delta has been largely successful with PBS, because their contract limited the amount of days away from home.

Really ?

Hmmm.......

Well, before I comment, perhaps you could elaborate on how valuation will impact arbitration ?

Clearly, you thoroughly understand that and I'd like to learn something.

The No voters rationale is they want to sell HBT and dom/intl in arbitration.

The union comes up with a value and the company comes up with a value and the arbitrator determines their "true" value.

Nothing at all from the APA has told us what the value of HBT and dom/intl is...we could be getting a much better deal this time around yet we don't even know it.

We don't have any of the information to make an informed decision.

If we are making an extra $85 mil a year in compensation but giving up $30 mil in concessions, we're coming out way ahead in a cost neutral JCBA process.

It's sickening to me that Delta gets 13/14 days off, min day, etc. Even my commuter had 12/13 days off for lineholders and reserves, min day, duty and trip rigs, etc.

But we're handcuffed by the MTA.

Face realty.

I think the discussion was regarding pbs language

One drawback to the Delta system is, the ability to swap up to FAR max flying. That's the part that eliminated jobs, as I said above, for every three guys doing it, that's one less pilot you need in category. If we had closed some of those loopholes there wouldn't have been so much stagnation.

Another drawback is, if you are junior, you are going to fly both the crappiest trips, on the worst days (weekends and holidays). Under our old line of time bidding, if you were junior, you might get lucky and find a good trip over the holidays, or have to fly a bunch of crappy trips...but be able to get Christmas off.

Now...no way. The good trips will all be sucked up by the senior pilots, all that's left when the computer gets down to the bottom line holders, is crappy trips, every weekend and every holiday.

That's why guys now bid to be as senior as possible in category, because PBS makes Seniority matter more. Being senior got better, but being junior sucks more.

Not sure how the lines are at AA but on the US side I can't say I've ever seen a line with 10 days off. I may be wrong though.

This is true Timbo. Imagine the kind of trips junior AA pilots are about to be subjected to with only 10 days off, and no min calendar day to serve as a credit buffer to prevent a piling on of low credit trips. They will have no backstop.

I've seen a few secondaries with 17-18 days of flying, but that's about it. Most of them run around 15-16 days of flying.

There are some AA lines (particularly on the Airbus in DFW and MIA) that are running 18-19 days of flying. I'm not sure why that is...but the trips don't look particularly efficient in any case. Hopefully PBS will help out in that arena.

Yeah...we just got our mid day up to 5:15, but now the company is building some 5 day trips, they say it's more efficient...

Think about flying 5 on, 3 off! Ouch!

Oh and the they don't get paid jack sh%# and there schedules still suck and they get 10 days off on rsv.

Really comparing this to Mesa?

DFW A319/I had 12-day off lines with a 2 on/1 off cadence. Many of the MIA I Widebody reserves get 30 house out of domicile and effectively end up with min days off.

I'm wondering if the DFW A319 lines suck that bad because it's a new jet and it's still being worked into the schedule...the CLT and PHL A319 lines are no where near that bad, with the exception of a few secondaries.

are you junior on that equipment?

Never heard this. Besides, that is outside the scope of arbitration. Any "trades" would have to be negotiated between the parties and not the arbitrators and then YES, the arbitrators could allow that between the parties (even with a mediator), but arbitrators cannot themselves go outside the scope of the MOU provisions.

You are enmeshed in misguided fantasy and rationalizing your position with what you want the arbitration to be as opposed to what it is. This makes it easier to convince yourself voting for this TA is the best option.

Again, this is all erroneous. You are confusing THIS arbitration (which is not like most due to the specific provisions of the MOU) with NEGOTIATION. Even IF an opportunity to negotiate should occur during the arbitral process, it just means we have MORE leverage because the arbitrators hands are tied from unilaterally crafting tit-for-tat valuation trades. That's actually a BETTER place to negotiate then what has occurs so far.

Might I suggest you contact the source, that being APA legal and talk to EJ yourself for a better understanding of the arbitration situation ?

No, just have spent time perusing various bid statuses from time to time to examine different lifestyles for potential bid considerations in the future. I've done that periodically with every bid status at legacy AA.

Not sure if they're still that bad, but they were. I haven't done a bid status tour in awhile. C & R has plenty of whining about various schedules and reserve treatment though. Not too many picnics out there right now. :cool:

Yeah, they giveth and they taketh away. That's just it, a lot of guys are saying "Well, look at how much this trip would pay with the 5:15 calendar day!" without considering that the pairing optimizer will not just run the same trip and pay us more. It puts a penalty on soft time and will try to build the most efficient trips. You won't have a CLT-LAX-CLT red eye now paying 15:45, those legs will be incorporated into other trips. I think the 5:15 calendar day would be better, but not millions of dollars better.

A couple of other things to think about. The MOU had a 1:-3.25 trip rig for trips with a greater than 24 hour overnight. Not great, but would have added over 5% to my line this month. The APA gave it away! What did that tell the company?

And finally, I got an answer to my question of why the 10 reps voted against sending the last offer to the company, from one of the 10. He said that the APA and company were close to closing out the contract and he felt we could have gotten, at a minimum, the 5:15 calendar day had we not asked for too much. Hmmm. They were about to give it to us last week before the ask, but after they wouldn't with the BOD offering to pass it without a vote, and no other asks, on the 3rd. Doesn't add up, so that leads me to believe the company is not scared of arbitration.

The kicker to al

I'm not sure if you're intentionally missing the gist of what I'm trying to get through to you or not.

I disagree that it's a BETTER place to be. At this point, my gut says we are getting a contract VALUE that is overall higher than the present one.

If we go to arbitration we lose the overall higher value and end up with status quo. Regardless of what we trade, it's going to end up being cost neutral which as an overall value is much lower than what is currently on the table, IMO.

We need the APA to provide relevant details and costs involved with everything as well as the language...

I don't want to give anything up and can live with what the MTA offers... I think they will come back and offer more negotiating over the next few years... if i am wrong, so what; Delta will have a stronger negotiating position with us going to arbitration ( we are willingly offering a lower total compensation and lower QOL issues then Delta through 2020 if this is voted in )

we vote this down, see what the company offers and then make a better deal in 4-5 years with Delta and United making more than if we undercut them with this deal.

We will be undercutting them regardless of what we do.

Has there been a fact checked document showing the value of the MTA contract and this proposed JCBA? Without it no one can make a firm statement one way or the other.

I will concede I have no firm numbers more than you or anybody else... I know I don't need the extra money and don't want to fly to Europe with 2 pilots for a 50 hour layover 16 days a month for 76 hours like what the company is offering.

The guys I work with in the military have shared what they have at Delta and United and it is much better than this offer from the company minus an hourly pay rate...

Saying we will be undercutting no mAtter what we do is a flat out distortion of reality.
Second you say you need numbers and arguing valuations. No one is arguing that the company offer isn't worth more. Majority of us are looking down the road rather than to next month. This is detrimental to your "dollar valuations" taking into account the big picture for the future. Ie. state of industry, future negotiations, precedents, and not to mention that we get a raises with our current agreement without giving anything up.