I can understand why you don't care about our HC. Many of the rest of us though who ARE subject to it do and obviously have more at stake.

The point of the "new option" is simply ambiguous language for Parker to do whatever he wishes with our HC (not yours) and the worrisome language you mention provides the process to do that, even so far as unilaterally implementing it should the arbitrator punt that issue, which he almost certainly will. He's not going to specifically say, "health care will be terminated at point X".

No downside for you though and congrats.

My wife won't always work for her company. So I do care about it.

However, your ideas of what will happen are fantasies. The language specifically states the new option will align as close to the option it replaced without going over the tax cap. It's pretty black and white. I'm not sure what you're reading because it's not the same thing I am.

....and like a dog chasing his tail, we're back to my original question;

Please explain in specific detail the "new option" described so we can all understand it better.

I understand your view, and if I had only been here a few years like you I would tend to agree. However after watching Parker win over and over again against what appeared to be strong language and seeing us get the short end of the grievance/arbitration stick I can say one thing for certain. We do not have the leverage that we think we do. Parker wants something to be sure or he would not be tossing out the money. However the other thing I am sure of is that he has mapped out a no vote from us at least 10 steps ahead of anything the APA has thought of to date. In 10 years of being on the receiving end of his management, the pilot group east and west, ALPA and USAPA have always been several steps behind. Just like the APA was about 10 steps behind Parker in the MOU negotiations. APA did exactly what parker expected and wanted.

So for me this vote will come down to the language of the contract offer. As far as the HBT and Dom/intl issue I have to figure that Parker is again 8 to 10 steps ahead of the pilot group on those issues like he has always been. What caused me to vote no on the MOU is the weak language. I think we will see the fruits of that weak language if we go to arbitration. I am pretty sure parker got the deal he needed 12 months ago, the rest is just window dressing to smooth things out a bit, but he does not need it to do what he wants.

My only question then is what's the plan for 2020, when we're even more bankrupt of desirable goodies, more fragmented and twice as weak and vulnerable ?

I know what my plan is, what's yours ?

The most honest answer I can give you is this. Whatever you think the airline landscape will be, you are wrong.

When I started my flying career Eastern was a fresh corpse, as well as Braniff, TWA was mortally wounded, Pan Am as well. Continental looked awful. Less than a decade before they were the powerhouse players in the business.

Had this discussion come up prior to 9/11 I would agree with you. Given world events and your stated hire date with AA you fall in the category of high risk for furlough. Not saying it to be mean just stating facts. Day one of new hire initial a wisened old instructor had all 50 of us new hires go to the back wall and read a letter he had posted. It was a furlough letter from years before. He simply said "right now you all should be captains in 5 years given current size and retirement schedule, but read the letter and plan ahead."

My point is, I cannot get completely wrapped up in 2020 what if's. Right now 2020 looks really nice given retirement schedules and everything else. but then again in the summer of 2001 with a new parity plus 1% contract in the books things looked pretty nice also.

The only advise I can give is 2020 will not be whatever you envision it to be today, so "plan ahead"

I would like to have min day, PS, intl/dom split etc. Do I think we will do better in arbitration? Honestly, no. Is anything in 2020 for sure? Given world events...No. Paris the other day is probably just the beginning of much more and no clue how something like that here would affect our little piece of the airline world.

Vote what you feel, but don't ever assume tomorrows airline landscape will be anywhere close to todays landscape.

Exactly my sentiments! Nice post!

Exactly. We can't start gaming 2020 at this point. Who knows where the economy will be. It could very well be in the toilet and we won't get anything in 2020. We could be in a boom time and the pilot shortage hits and we could use that as leverage. Who knows? All we can do at this point is score today's situation on the pros and cons. It's tiring to keep seeing everyone cart out the "what ifs" and ignore the past. As you pointed out, PK has never come crawling back to a labor group. They've thrown some small sweeteners to try and extract the minimum needed to pass, but that's about it. History is not on our side if we vote no and head to arbitration.

I'll leave that up to him if he wants to post who he worked for, but I interviewed with him and he indeed flew for a 121 operation and was a Captain at that company.

My tenure in the airline industry appears to pre-date yours slightly and all of it has been associated with AMR/AAG, so I too have the opportunity to learn a thing or two in over a quarter of a century here. Of course, no one can predict the future, but one can quantify the past and present. In OUR situation, it is clear we will have less benefits and work rules to once again trade for pay, but you can be sure if most are willing to do that now with less risk, 2020 will be a given.

If you question that, might I suggest you review the labor history here at AA ?

If you do that, I think you'll find a lot of consistency despite the ups and down of the industry or what affects it. If this passes, it simply continues the dysfunction and its predictable results. My point is it won't matter what the external landscape will look like just as it hasn't in the past. The only thing that will matter is what landscape we make of ourselves. Only considering what's in front of you now and disregarding the plan down the road (or in the air) is a poor way to secure your future or fly an airplane.

Good luck with your plan. :cool: