Originally Posted by Laker24

I don't think the NIC is a "given." More of a high probability as it's the only US Airways list. I think your logic is flawed in that you assume it will be a merger of three lists from scratch. I know the MOU says the status quo of three lists will be maintained during the SLI process but I don't think that means what you believe it to mean.

If you look at the exchange between Javits and Pauley again I think it's quite clear that Javits sees the need to present one Us Airways list to be merged into AA. The arbitrator pins Pauley down and eventually gets him to concede he will be making a proposal that does not conform to the NIC. Javits asks him if he is intending to make himself the new Nicalou?

Here is part of that exchange:
ARBITRATOR JAVITS: And whether it has got a dynamic jumping system or not, it would be --
THE WITNESS: True.
It would include all pilots.
ARBITRATOR JAVITS: It would include all
your pilots and the American pilots. So it would include everybody.
Is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.

The critical portion in my humble opinion is the statement that "It would include all your pilots and the American Pilots." Notice there is no mention of West Pilots because West Pilots are US Airways pilots. So the Arbitrator is saying that they are going to blend a US Airways list into the AA list. A merger of Two airlines (albeit one airline is mired in a seniority dispute). Which Us Airways list is used is the big question. The chances of the Arbitrators discarding a list reached through binding arbitration conducted by the premier Arbitrator at the time seems unlikely.

Now your statement that AA will not propose the NIC is irrelevant in my opinion and sets AA up for having their input discarded. It is not AA's position to determine the order of the US Airways list. Just like US Airways pilots will not advance a proposal on how Eagle pilots should be ordered in the AA list.

Go to page 625 on this document and read through the end of page 629. I think it's not too difficult to see how the arbitrators believe this will play out. Here is the link
http://nebula.wsimg.com/b9e507a4d328...&alloworigin=1

I don't know why AA is heavily invested in not having the NIC incorporated. All I can guess is they are worried about more relatively younger west pilots appearing higher on the final list. They don't want high numbers of East pilots retiring off the bottom and consequently not creating movement for AA. The number of Captain slots on the US Airways side will not change so it won't produce a windfall of extra CA jobs. Just to ease your fears the West is actually quite old and I believe the average age is well north of 50. There have been over 600 new hires on the east many of whom now hold widebody FO positions or senior narrowbody positions. I think it's more of a threat to AA to have those junior East new hires placed above their rightful position on the list with 30+ years to block AA pilots below them.

Due to years of separate ops we now have nearly 20 year FO's on the West and 30 year old 330 FO's on the East. Do you want that 30 year old 330 FO halfway up the seniority list with 5 years of service and the 20 year 320 FO sitting two thirds of the way down? What benefits AA? Be careful listening to the USAPA propaganda machine.

Originally Posted by SewerPipeDvr

You cannot spell the word but you know what they can or cannot do? Right.

Originally Posted by SewerPipeDvr

" So the Arbitrator is saying that they are going to blend a US Airways list into the AA list. A merger of Two airlines (albeit one airline is mired in a seniority dispute)." That is a J. Pauly quote, not Javits. Interesting that Javits brought up the point, but context is everything. What purpose did the Board have to bring this onto the record?

Context is everything and I think you misunderstood the exchange. Read it again. I posted a link and page numbers. Javits stated "it would include all your pilots and the American pilots. So it would include everybody right?" Javits is saying there will be a Us Airways list which will be merged into the AA list. Now which list will they use to merge into AA?

"Notice there is no mention of West Pilots because West Pilots are US Airways pilots." This only makes the East point (that was rejected) that the West pilots belong to their group, not split off on their own. Again you miss context.

I would counter that you are not quite comprehending the situation. I don't think anybody questions whether the West belongs in the same group as the East. The whole point of this hearing was to determine whether the East will fairly represent the minority within their group. Does that make sense? They are not saying that the West is a separate group, separate airline, they are saying that the East cannot be trusted to fairly represent the West pilots within their group. The minority contingent if you will. Particularly considering the past actions of the East.


" The chances of the Arbitrators discarding a list reached through binding arbitration conducted by the premier Arbitrator at the time seems unlikely." No evidence this statement is true. No one knows. Strictly your opinion but no basis to prove it correct.

Of course that's just my opinion. I don't claim to have a crystal ball.

Originally Posted by Laker24

Quote from the Arbitrator ruling:

"The MOU also established the framework whereby the parties would integrate pilot seniority lists for the two carriers utilizing a process consistent with McCaskill-Bond. In the event the parties were unable to negotiate an integrated seniority list, the dispute would then be submitted to a panel of arbitrators for consideration."

Originally Posted by Laker24

They do not view it as a merger of three airlines. As somebody previously mentioned you will not find a mention of America West in this transaction. There are not 3 separate career expectations. There are two.

Originally Posted by Laker24

Here is the link to the arbitrator ruling if you care to read it for yourself.
http://nebula.wsimg.com/f40aed0ca68a...&alloworigin=1

Originally Posted by crzipilot

There is also this quote....

The Board notes that there are three such groups of pilots within the newly merged Company - East
Pilots, West Pilots, and legacy American Pilots. Each pilot group is on a
separate seniority list and, therefore, has a distinct interest regarding the
integration of those seniority lists.

and this....

APA denies that the designation of a West Pilot Merger Committee is
unreasonable or somehow arbitrary. It notes that all Company Pilots – East
Pilots, West Pilots, and legacy American Pilots – are on separate seniority lists
and, thus, have disparate interests regarding the integration of those lists.
Appointing a West Pilot Merger Committee will ensure that the interests of all
pilots will be properly represented during the SLI negotiations, APA contends


and this...

The Company insists that the appointment of a West Pilots Merger
Committee would allow competing opinions to be heard during the seniority
integration arbitration. APA, as the sole bargaining representative for all
Company pilots, can and should designate a separate merger committee to
represent the distinct minority interests of West Pilots, the Company asserts.
Doing so would ensure the pilots on each of the three (3) separate seniority lists
are fully and fairly represented throughout the integration process, the Company
maintains. Adopting this approach would also expedite achieving an integrated
seniority list and avoid further litigation between the respective parties.


Anyone see a common theme here?

Originally Posted by Laker24

I don't think the NIC is a "given." More of a high probability as it's the only US Airways list. I think your logic is flawed in that you assume it will be a merger of three lists from scratch. I know the MOU says the status quo of three lists will be maintained during the SLI process but I don't think that means what you believe it to mean.

If you look at the exchange between Javits and Pauley again I think it's quite clear that Javits sees the need to present one Us Airways list to be merged into AA. The arbitrator pins Pauley down and eventually gets him to concede he will be making a proposal that does not conform to the NIC. Javits asks him if he is intending to make himself the new Nicalou?

Here is part of that exchange:
ARBITRATOR JAVITS: And whether it has got a dynamic jumping system or not, it would be --
THE WITNESS: True.
It would include all pilots.
ARBITRATOR JAVITS: It would include all
your pilots and the American pilots. So it would include everybody.
Is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.

The critical portion in my humble opinion is the statement that "It would include all your pilots and the American Pilots." Notice there is no mention of West Pilots because West Pilots are US Airways pilots. So the Arbitrator is saying that they are going to blend a US Airways list into the AA list. A merger of Two airlines (albeit one airline is mired in a seniority dispute). Which Us Airways list is used is the big question. The chances of the Arbitrators discarding a list reached through binding arbitration conducted by the premier Arbitrator at the time seems unlikely.

Now your statement that AA will not propose the NIC is irrelevant in my opinion and sets AA up for having their input discarded. It is not AA's position to determine the order of the US Airways list. Just like US Airways pilots will not advance a proposal on how Eagle pilots should be ordered in the AA list.

Go to page 625 on this document and read through the end of page 629. I think it's not too difficult to see how the arbitrators believe this will play out. Here is the link
http://nebula.wsimg.com/b9e507a4d328...&alloworigin=1

I don't know why AA is heavily invested in not having the NIC incorporated. All I can guess is they are worried about more relatively younger west pilots appearing higher on the final list. They don't want high numbers of East pilots retiring off the bottom and consequently not creating movement for AA. The number of Captain slots on the US Airways side will not change so it won't produce a windfall of extra CA jobs. Just to ease your fears the West is actually quite old and I believe the average age is well north of 50. There have been over 600 new hires on the east many of whom now hold widebody FO positions or senior narrowbody positions. I think it's more of a threat to AA to have those junior East new hires placed above their rightful position on the list with 30+ years to block AA pilots below them.

Due to years of separate ops we now have nearly 20 year FO's on the West and 30 year old 330 FO's on the East. Do you want that 30 year old 330 FO halfway up the seniority list with 5 years of service and the 20 year 320 FO sitting two thirds of the way down? What benefits AA? Be careful listening to the USAPA propaganda machine.

Originally Posted by FreighterGuyNow

While I happen to agree with your 'muzzled' comment at least USAP had to argue FOR the America West pilots.

That impediment has now been removed.

Both parties ( APA and UsAirways ) are now free to throw the America West pilots, via the Nicolau, under the bus. When you factor in the subject matter experts on the Us Airways merger commitee are no longer constrained from cooperating with their legacy American counterparts to achieve this .....

Originally Posted by SewerPipeDvr

In context of their findings, I disagree. This arbitration had two parts. One side Company, APA and US West, argued APA as sole CBA had a right to appoint a West rep if they deemed it fair. Opposing the East argued they had no right, only USAPA could do that. The arbitration found for APA per RLA. East behavior toward the West should play no role. The ruling only says APA is CBA and can appoint who they want with DFR responsibilities/guidelines. The interesting thing is why the board chose to review the East behavior and explore why the West would not be treated fairly by the East. Interesting, very interesting. As I said the hair on my neck would stand out if I was East. Again the smartest thing the bottom two thirds of the East list could do is organize and ask APA to allow a vote for MC replacement, getting rid of USAPA and any working with them. If they try DOH they will be CAL'ed.

Originally Posted by Sweatsock

I think APA was just handed the winning card. West got what they wanted and are now a separate body on their own, a meager 1400 ish pilots out of 15000. About 50% of the east will be retired in 5 years which will leave about the same number of east pilots as the west.

When all is said and done those who are Captains now will be captains post SLI, those that are F/O's will be F/o's after.

In reality by the time the dust settles the last 10 years will be a moot point.

Even if the arbitrators handed the west the NIC list prior to integration with APA, which is a very very long shot, it really wont matter in the grand scheme of things. Had age 60 not changed the whole thing would have been over 5 years ago.

No matter what happens now the guys that would have been hurt the worst by the NIC on the east 10 years ago are all in their last few years now. Most are already over 60 in the left seat and safe from a bump and flush most likely.

When the dust settles the only ones on the east left will be a few from the 1988 89 hires, then airways had 10 years of no hiring till 99. Of which only about 500 total remain from that period (89 to 2000 hires) So for that group even if they got NIC'd completely at most they lost maybe 4 years seniority. Which when mixed in with 15000 pilots is nothing.

No I would say the biggest challenge to the west guys is going to be the AA pilots. They are the ones that are going to fight tooth and nail to keep NIC from being used in any fashion. Now that all the 84 to 87 east hires are going to be gone very soon, certainly before any widebody fences are finished, the only threat to APA pilots are the west guys hired in 99 to 2005 that under NIC would be slotted in with all those soon to be retired 84 to 87 east guys.