Benefits of JS reservations, a must read.

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05-12-2015, 02:07 PM

#11

Route66

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Joined APC: Nov 2014

Posts: 1,238

Quote:

Originally Posted by drinksonme

I have to agree. That's only part of the letter that is incorrect. Who dictates who rides the jumpseat is not the CA on a macro level. It actually involves the DHS, the Department of Transportation, the FAA, the company, and finally down to a micro level of the CA. The company has a Macro control at its level as well and can dictate the use over the CA.

Here's an example of how it's NOT the CA's seat until someone requesting a ride has cleared all the other agencies control and policies, and is literally asking the CA for a ride. Remember after 9/11.....who controlled the "non use" of the JS and made commuting and travel another nightmare during those times? Answer: It was not a Captain, and not one CA controlled the seat on "their" plane during those times.

This is why APA will never control the jumpseat or its use no matter how many resolutions they pass. I like the letter and agree there is a better way to award the seat, but in the end, it's a policy

You are EXACTLY right.

05-12-2015, 02:15 PM

#12

CanoePilot

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Joined APC: Jun 2012

Posts: 1,166

I'd actually prefer it the other way around. FCFS the first 4 days then seniority for the last 3.

05-12-2015, 05:17 PM

#13

Arado 234

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Joined APC: Nov 2013

Posts: 1,764

Quote:

Originally Posted by Route66

That IS the pecking order. The FAA (administrator) THEN the Company (Certificate holder, if approved by the administrator) THEN the PIC (Captain, which BTW is not mentioned as ""CAPTAIN" in the FAR's).

Here is the point: If the "Captain" denies a jump seater because he is FAA, SS or CK Airman.....expect to get a visit to the CP and explain it.

If the "Captain" denies the JS to anyone other off airline no harm no foul. Deny the JS to our own (either LAA/LUS/LAWA...etc. you can expect problems.) But if the Company sets the policy to FCFS it is possible that the APA could try to convince them of something other but after the Kirby Crew news last week.....well.....I kind of doubt the Company is going to REPROGRAM the IVR system after all the work gone into it and ALL the time it will take to satisfy the few "senior" guys libido's, all the while occupying valuable programmer time with something that already works.

Kinda reminds at my abusive time at a dysfunctional airline out of STL, Trans States. We were in the middle of the Go Jet issues when the jump seat war broke out. One idiot started to deny the jump seat to somebody who then told his buddies, who denied positive space d/h travel etc. The crown jewel in this muddy war was the Director of Ops FORCING captains to accept jumpseaters from Go Jet on their jumpseats. Those guys mainly were a royal pain in the butt making this whole east/west issue look like 6 year old girls fighting over candy. Captains raised objections about being forced to allow people on their j/s they didn't like, but MW didn't give a d@mn. (He made headlines later on trying to take off single engine in a 145 out of IAD and lie about it.)

Tell me that pecking order again. I might just throw up on my keyboard.

05-12-2015, 05:34 PM

#14

PurpleTurtle

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Joined APC: Apr 2011

Posts: 1,967

Quote:

Originally Posted by Route66

IT is backed up for another two decades programming much more important issues than jumpseat quibbling.

Whatever system is implemented by Kirby will be the system that will last until APA grows a pair and quits being a management sycophant.

05-12-2015, 05:37 PM

#15

drinksonme

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Joined APC: Apr 2012

Posts: 403

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC

14 CFR §121.547 is the controlling regulation. It says that in order for a person to gain access to the flight deck, that person must have the permission of:

1) The Admiistrator, and

2) The Certificate Holder, and

3) The Pilot in Command

Permission is required by all 3. Permission can be denied by any one. The Pilot in Command is one who can deny permission.

If the Captain says, "No", the jumpseater don't go.

Period.

So, what were you saying about The Company dictating over the Captain?

.

The COMPANY IS THE "CERTIFICATE HOLDER."

I never said if the CA says no the Jumpseater does not go. I said he is the last in the food chain of the decision making on who rides the seat. Your post makes my point, see "PERMISSION". CA's are involved in the permission process and to make sure the company's policies and FAA regulations are followed. That's the rub....permission is not policy. CA's do not set the policy on how it's awarded, who is approved to ride the Jumpseat, or who can ride it in what order. CA's are PERMISSION inforcers who have regulations and policy to follow to determine permission, unless of course they have a reason to deny permission. Also, in your post where is Union Resolution in the hierarchy?

A lot of pilots have got it in their head that the CA "owns" the Jumpseat and is the only law. Where do you look for Jumpseat hierarchy....I check my OPS manual provided by the company with its policies and approved by the FAA. Where does any Union sign off on that book or the Operating Certificate?

What I am saying is the CA's, all of them, do not control the Jumpseat from a seniority order or FCFS policy. The union has input but untimely the company decides how a Jumpseat rider will get to the CA. Big Picture...yes the CA controls the seat on an individual basis....based on a big policy they did not set, nor control changes to or from

Last edited by drinksonme; 05-12-2015 at 06:09 PM.

05-12-2015, 06:28 PM

#16

prex8390

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Joined APC: Feb 2011

Posts: 2,146

i hate the reservation system in general, why cant i just go up the counter and ask for it like every other carrier?

05-12-2015, 06:49 PM

#17

Al Czervik

You scratched my anchor

Joined APC: Feb 2011

Posts: 4,876

Quote:

Originally Posted by prex8390

i hate the reservation system in general, why cant i just go up the counter and ask for it like every other carrier?

Yeah, guaranteed seats suck.

05-12-2015, 07:14 PM

#18

TonyC

Organizational Learning 

Joined APC: Nov 2005

Position: Directly behind the combiner

Posts: 4,948

Quote:

Originally Posted by Route66

Deny the JS to our own (either LAA/LUS/LAWA...etc. you can expect problems.)

Problems from who? Does not the PIC have the authority to deny flight deck access? Who will infringe on the PIC's authority?

Quote:

Originally Posted by drinksonme

CA's are PERMISSION inforcers who have regulations and policy to follow to determine permission, unless of course they have a reason to deny permission.

...

...yes the CA controls the seat on an individual basis....based on a big policy they did not set, nor control changes to or from

The (company) policies to which you refer determine who The Company gives permission to, but there is nothing in 14 CFR §121.547 that allows The Company to infringe upon The Captain's authority to deny anyone he pleases. Just because The Company gives their permission doesn't mean the Captain has to give his permission also. Except for the few special cases (FAA air carrier inspector, etc.), the Captain's authority is unencumbered. If The Company tries to interfere with that authority, they'll have to answer to the FAA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drinksonme

Also, in your post where is Union Resolution in the hierarchy?

...

The union has input but untimely the company decides ...

The Union is not in the hierarchy. The Union can attempt to negotiate with The Company to change their policies, but they obviously do not control the policies. The Union has a responsibility to educate Captains about their responsibilities and their authority, but they cannot interfere with Captains' decisions, or try to make decisions for The Captains. Only the Captains can be the Captains.

.