eaglefly

Definitely complicates things for USAPA. It would seem they must now overhaul their SLI proposal with LAA pilots. Of course, if the East committee is now REQUIRED to advocate for the Nic, I can only wonder to what purpose would be for the requirement for a separate West committee ?

It would seem to me, the two separate committees return to a previous make-up of one committee that includes both East and West pilots along with a new pre-hearing position statement adjusted for the Nic. It's important to note the McCaskill-Bond process is still the controlling guide in this SLI and this latest development does not compel the present arbitration panel to use the Nic. The LAA committee still has a strong argument for pre-merger career consideration and that LAA pilots should not be casualties of this fracas. I think it may have only exacerbated the likelihood of AA/U pre-merger fences though if the SLI panel doesn't prefer a more simple resolution to that disparity.

Still reviewing their pre-merger positions, but I looked to see how I personally would fare in both the LAA and West proposals. Looking at the pilot from the West that is next most junior to me on the LAA proposal which is a West Group II F/O (only a few numbers), that pilot is about my age and whose seniority (DOH) is a year prior to my OCC AA seniority, which I assume is to compensate for "pre-merger" career expectation differences, those being better at AA. I then looked for where the West proposal would place that same pilot (I knew it would be senior to ne, but how much ?). The West proposal places that pilot about 4000 numbers senior to me on the ISL. That means this Group II PHX F/O (absent fences) will be able to immediately bid and hold a 767 Captains status in MIA, a status it would take me about 7 years to match (maybe). The immediate income increase from where this pilots pre-merger career expectation was on 12/8/2013 would be 2.5 times above that he could have reasonably expect to have obtained absent this merger and once he bid that status his income as a result of this merger would FAR outpace mine.....in fact, it would blow mine out of the water.

I found that quite interesting.

The West has a history of advocating and arguing for pre-merger career expectations as indicated in this (and other) documents and it's interesting that in THIS case, they now belittle that consideration as inconsequential. My example of their SLI placement of a similar pilot clearly demonstrates a windfall for him at my expense and it will be interesting to see how this SLI develops. Of course, it will be more interesting in the immediate future to see what USAPA's response will be considering they're on record as saying they will never adopt the Nic.

cactiboss

On the Nicolau award that west pilot can hold a group 3 captain. Why can't you understand that?

eaglefly

Because doing so on the LAA side is a benefit it will take me many, many years to enjoy, especially now with thousands of new previously non-AA pilots to get their first and as importantly, it's a result that WOULD NOT HAVE OCCURED FOR THAT PILOT ABSENT THIS MERGER as there was no mechanism in sight that would have made this dispute "ripe" ABSENT THIS MERGER AND SLI.

Why can't you understand THAT ?

I think it's possible the consideration of long fences may just become a more simple solution considering what appears the West's (and I suppose now the East's as well) intransigence in believing a pre-merger West F/O making $100/hour who had no pre-merger expectation of pole-vaulting to an American Airline Group III captains slot making $280/hour as a result of this merger when a similarly situated pre-merger legacy LAA pilot must wait many, many years to match that West pilot meteoric financial blast-off.

Again, it's interesting to note how the West chooses merger concepts based on value to them in a given SLI. With US Airways East, pre-merger career expectations as well as individual and carrier financials were fair game, but now in an even MORE differentiated merger and integration, they somehow don't matter.

Interesting.

Laker24

Eagle,

I think you need to get used to the idea of the NIC being used in its undiluted state. This will prevent any big disappointments in the future. The reason the group 2 west FO is still an FO is because the west has been marooned in PHX due to East tyranny of the majority for 8 years now. It doesn't matter what you think is fair it matters what the 9th and the arbitrators determine to be fair. Whatever that West FO can hold on the NIC is what he brings to the merger. Your argument won't hold in front of an arbitration panel. But I hope your committee thinks exactly like you do because they will get their clocks cleaned just like US Air ALPA did 8 years ago.

The only viable option for APA at this point is to argue that the AA career is a more valuable one and they should be given more credit for superior career expectations. That might work to an extent. But getting caught up in supposed windfalls for west pilots who have had a boot on their neck for the last 8 years won't get you very far. Not only will you be trying to undo the work of Nicolau but you would be saying you are smarter than the 9th. Shaky ground. It would be a massive waste of political capital and credibility to try and reorder the NIC award. I'm surprised APA tried it in their opener. Now they have egg in their face with a proposal that is very much aligned with the jihadis on the East

eaglefly

I have no concerns about the Nic being argued for in its pure "undiluted" state by whatever committee is arguing for it in the upcoming arbitration. Just so you understand that is NOT the same as it being adopted by this arbitration panel in that undiluted state and that's something YOU should consider. Look, I understand you and some of the other West pilots are intoxicated with glee over today's ruling and I'm sure there will be plenty of hangovers and sick calls in PHX tomorrow, but don't confuse this courts ruling with the final ISL determined by the upcoming arbitration.

Remember my friend, that wonderful little statute that you waved valiantly in the air when it suited YOUR needs still is guiding us and windfalls to West pilots at LAA pilots expense are still windfalls. All the more reason that I think fences might simply HAVE to become a stronger consideration now and they might be longer then previously needed or needed at all.


If you read the LAA pre-hearing position, you'd note that is EXACTLY what the LAA committee is arguing (and a pretty good one at that, if you ask me). No one disputed the "boot" you've had on your neck for 8 years, but believing it gives you carte blanche to do to LAA pilots what was done to you is as misguided and greedy (and quite frankly, little different from what USAPA advocates). CLEARLY, many West pilots are now drooling with lust after today's ruling ravenously eyeing the smorgasbord of the LAA statuses as they think the Nic will propel them into.

All the more reason to have no choice but to revert to the dreaded fence. It appears you misread what the 9th appeal said and that is that there is NO requirement for THIS arbitration panel to do ANYTHING about the Nic. NOTHING. The 9th CANNOT compel the arbitrators HERE to do that. Why ?

Because McCASKILL-BOND is STILL the litmus my friend and if the arbitrators decide that West pilots have or will receive a windfall based on not only what they HAD pre-merger, but could EXPECT pre-merger WITHOUT this merger, then THAT is the basis for the ISL. If they must integrate us based on the Nic, fences are almost a certainty now -or- (and this may sting a little) feather pilots in Nic order more disparately to protect West pilots from windfalls at LAA pilots expense, especially those more junior. In other words, in the latter situation, blocks (or individual pilots) on the US Airways list will just be lower then they would have been in a three-list feathering exercise.

Again, congrats on your victory and enjoy, but I'd caution you on getting TOO intoxicated or on it or ravenous as a result of it and believing the 9th's ruling is giving something it may not.

Laker24

I'm not intoxicated or salivating over a windfall from the AA pilots. But your proposal placed thousands of East pilots who are JUNIOR to me on the NIC list senior to me. That will not fly. If you want to argue I don't have the expectation of flying a 777 then go ahead. As long as East pilots who are junior to me on the NIC remain junior to me I will not complain.

But just so we are clear you did not have the expectation of making 280/hour flying as 767 captain. Absent the merger your expectation was shrinkage and pay cuts. Certainly not a large pay raise and growth. We have a list of witnesses who worked on the AA ch11 who will testify to that fact. You can't claim that without Doug Parker you would magically get industry leading wages. It's spelled out quite clearly in our brief that both US Airways and AA would have suffered a slow death as stand alone carriers.

Again I don't think fences will fly. Us Airways has been steadily increasing the 330 fleet and has plenty of A350's on order. US Airways pilots both east and west had expectations to fly widebody jets. The ruling by the 9th confirms that the tyranny of the majority would not last into perpetuity.

eaglefly

Are these the same "experts" who because of their belief that we had no (or little) career expectations that formulated you list and feathered AA pilots with those in the West ? Yes, I'm sure your "experts" will give their opinions on our "slow death" without you and I'm sure the LAA committee will offer equally competing opinions. I suppose on the same subject, where would a stand alone US Airways end up considering it was neither fish (a legacy) nor fowl (a low cost LCC) ?

I would expect that a fair argument would be made for your even faster demise than ours.


But neither will the tyranny of the weak rise from the ashes of the destruction of the tyranny of the majority. Look, clearly, this development only WIDENS the differences the various segments of this future pilot group have about what they believe to be fair and equitable and it may just be that if the arbitrators might find fences the least objectionable of what will clearly be a VERY difficult decision, they will use them, otherwise a different feathering ratio. The fact remains that IF the Nic is used in pure form against LAA pilots AND it propels West pilots to a more advantageous position at THEIR expense, THAT is a windfall and the arbitration process is designed to prevent that. Not even the 9th can change what the sacrosanct position of an NMB arbitration rules and isn't that the whole crux of what they just ruled on in YOUR FAVOR ?

They reaffirmed that arbitrated results are valid and even if one side believes it unfair (like East pilots did), it IS the award. After reading the LAA committees PMP, I'm comfortable with where the LAA committee will position themselves both from a fair and balanced proposal position as well as a defense one regarding the expected attacks by West witnesses to belittle our pre-merger carrier, it's future and our pre-merger expectations. I would expect some alterations now as the previous proposed list does not use a Nic assumption.

Laker24

Legal Postings: Addington II, Appeal to the Ninth Circuit


This morning we received a decision from the United States Court of Appeals in Addington II, reversing Judge Silver’s decision on the duty of fair representation claim and remanding the case to the District Court to enter an injunction against USAPA. The opinion reads in part: “Accordingly, we reverse the district court’s conclusion that USAPA did not breach its duty of fair representation and remand with instructions to enjoin USAPA from participating in the McCaskill-Bond proceedings except to the extent that USAPA will advocate the Nicolau Award.”
The opinion and the dissent by Judge Tashima is now posted in the Legal Library.
USAPA is considering its response to the decision at this time with respect to the SLI Hearing and we will provide more information as soon as possible.
USAPA Communications



The ruling is quite clear that the US Airways list must be the NIC. The East is going to be under an injunction to argue for the NIC. The arbitrators can do whatever they want in feathering AA into the NIC but the NIC cannot be re-ordered. The AA proposal has re-ordered the NIC. So your team will have to modify their proposal. They are free to argue that the NIC should be stapled beneath the bottom Eagle flow through. i'm not sure how well that will go over but it's certainly your right to make that argument.

I agree that AA can argue absent a merger US Airways would have struggled more than AA. There is a compelling argument to be made there. But I don't think the disparity is as great as you make it out to be. Some people will benefit from the merger more than others. That is the case in all mergers. There is no way around it. The idea is to get as close to fair as possible. Thankfully the West represents about 10% of the new pilot group. I think it's a waste of your energy to go after the west. You should be trying to go after the Airways group as a whole. Just my $.02

eaglefly

I've advocated no "reordering" of pre-merger lists from the beginning and the LAA position was the same. If the Nic is used, I don't see it being reordered and thus the foundation of my comments. I certainly don't think the LAA committee would be stupid enough to mention a staple, but clearly, this complicates their whole pre-merger career expectation position, a position which has substantial precedence in multiple past SLI's and was even advocated by AWA pilots against US Airways pilots.

Yes, I read the Wests PMP and they too belittle and attempt to minimize competing financial positions of the two carriers. The arbitrators will separate the wheat from the chaff despite the efforts at argument as they are capable of looking at hard data and weighing various opinions. Yes, some benefit more than others, but the goal is to minimize that, if unable to eliminate it and the majority of the pilots are legacy AA and the majority of those at potential disadvantage are junior at legacy AA, so do you hurt a minority (hundreds of junior West) or a majority (thousands of junior LAA) with a disparity if one or the other must get hurt ?

That's arbitration and know one know that answer in this case yet. The fences or feathering required will decide that and it might be a combination of them, if one alone is insufficient and that's just my .02. As for "going after the West", I'm only reacting to their PMP and list. It's really all I have to go on and tells a clear story of their philosophy regarding not just their position toward the East (which is understandable), but LAA especially mixing their list as they did and then advocating no obstructions to prevent them from running freely throughout the LAA system unimpeded. If a close equivalent West pilot to my age, relative seniority and status gets something like a 7 year jump on my side of the fence only because we merged, that's tough not to see as a windfall.

While the LAA committee will likely have to reformulate their proposed list, I would think it apt for the new combined U pilots to factor something more reasonable as simply adopting the West proposal (as it already includes the Nic) has all the hallmarks of a windfall at multiple junctures in that list absent mitigators.

Frisco727

The defensive ones mock aircraft crashes. Just ask corkscrew goose about rudder control. Perhaps it's today's developments most likely put you on the defensive and easily annoyed.