Sliceback

83 hrs/month of 777 FO pay = 73 hrs 737 rsv guarantee.

It's easy enough to exceed those two monthly hour averages. I'd guess it's close to a wash.

TRZ06

While I agree "cesspool" culture is a bit of an exaggeration, we thought the same thing about times are changing in 1984 as new "B" scale hires. So it looks the same to me now. And in reality we are nearly five times larger now than when I started so it maybe even harder to change things. Besides a very small group of Trans Carib pilots there were no native vs. non-native labels, and probably a lot less diversity in pilots. So from a culture stand point, Southwest would probably be more unified and less divided IMO.

One more thing. Having flown smallest to largest from domestic to international, its definitely not all the same. All have their upside and downside, so its nice to have both to choose from. And honestly, neither type flying is as good as it used to be 30 years ago
(schedules, hotels, amount of flying) so I would not factor this in deciding whether you go or stay. Like the others have said, find a place where you won't have to commute...that will have more QOL implications than anything else. Good Luck to whatever you choose!

hindsight2020

Figured this was an appropriate place to ask seeing how it's an LCC-PLus vs Legacy thread....

Just read about the NAI decision. Anybody willing to take a stab at the impact the NAI factor will have on the future of these two company models going forward? Would it be fair to suggest the impact of globalization (via flags of convenience, if not outright cabotage in the future) on US airline pilot labor market will create an environment where being at SW, JB or even Spirit, would become a "better" career move than being at the bottom of a mammoth job-shedding seniority list at legacy? Thus making the SWA vs AA a bit more nuanced?

I know a lot of people dig at places like Spirit right now, but looking at the tea leaves, I just don't want to be in the position of having to re-train in my late 40s when my family will be at peak life consumption. Frankly I'd rather stay in public service to retirement, if that's where the domestic airline market end game is heading towards. I'm well past V1 in life when it comes to income versus family overhead. NAI-like and ME3 carriers essentially pay no better than what I can attain in the civil service, making the airlines a non-starter on the QOL front. For Mickey mouse ART money, I can do the BS and be home every night.

Some suggest a scenario where US LCCs begin partnering with these flag of convenience locusts in order to give them access to the domestic connecting network required to fill these 787s with the proverbial basket of deplorables. A dystopia where the domestic ULCC guy keeps his B-scale job, while the guy at AA loses his outright.

So, what say you? SWA vs AA post-NAI?

Hueypilot

NAI is certainly a threat. But there are a number of variables at play here. First off, NAI's business model depends upon affordable fuel and affordable labor. If the economy keeps chugging along even at it's current mediocre rate, NAI will have a lot of turnover and their training costs will be high. Second, if fuel costs go up, their resulting fares will have to invariably go up. And while people may be able to deal with Spirit-like conditions on a domestic route, it's unknown how the flying public will deal with cattle-car Spirit-like seating on an 8-hour international route.

If DOT is determined to let NAI operate, we need to keep our unions and other aviation interest groups pressuring the government to force NAI to play by US labor rules, and that in the very least will make it tougher for them to offer their product on a long-term basis.

Name User

The Norwegian product is actually pretty good. Akin to JetBlue.

They fly 787's, fuel prices will impact us much more than them.

Unless we up our game, long term, our international routes are f'd.

Al Czervik

Said this before.. love to see AA, DL, UAL come together and put the screws to NAI.

Gilligan13

Does Swa always fly 4 plus legs a day? How do the new pay compare to AA 73 rates?

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Hueypilot

- Norwegian Air Shuttle's product is akin to JetBlue. NAI will be an ULCC international product. Same parent company but two separate operations. I'd expect NAI's product to be somewhere between Spirit and WOW Air (the ULCC to Iceland). Smallish seats and limited service.

- We also fly 787s and we will operate them on routes that make sense for that airplane economically. We are also buying more of them. The 777 will operate on routes that are more economically feasible for that airframe. Ditto for the 330, although I would expect that the A350 may replace that airframe (or many of them). None of our long-haul international aircraft are inefficient fuel-wise, and since we aren't pricing using a ULCC model, fuel prices will hurt us but not to the extent that it could hurt a ULCC.

- While NAI may siphon off pleasure travelers who are shopping for cheap, they won't affect our big-dollar business travelers much because as far as I know, none of their current aircraft have a first or business-class cabin. And their current aircraft (738s) squeeze around 180 people into a -800 airframe. That's pretty tight.

Our first strategy was to deny NAI the ability to operate these routes but that may not be a political reality. If we are unable to do so, then we should make sure that our government ensures they operate in a manner consistent with airlines that operate out of the US (I believe they have to have a US crew base). AA, Delta and United also need to be competitive and remind the traveling public that sitting in a maximum seating configuration for 8+ hours is going to be pretty grueling. Much like how SWA beat the legacies over the head with the "bags fly free" advertising, the US carriers need to do the same with NAI with leg-room and the fact they won't be nickel-and-dimed to the degree that passengers on ULCCs are. Additionally, I wonder if those low, low fares (I've seen around $100 each way) include immigration taxes, etc.

Hueypilot

And regarding ULCCs, I've done the research on my own domestically since I have three kids and we travel a lot (and non-revving with such a large group is impossible).

To travel on Spirit, the base fare is typically very low. But when you add in the bags and carry-ons that a family of 5 would bring, plus the taxes and other fees, it's about 80-90% of what SWA or my AA20 fare would be.

When you consider the seats are tiny and suck, they charge you for everything, and if you wind up having to carry a last minute bag (that they'll hit you for big $$$), plus the very limited schedule they fly (usually a lot of red-eyes and/or early AM departures or late PM arrivals), it's just not worth it to us. There are some flyers that do fly Spirit because that 80-90% figure is all their budget will allow. But IMHO, many travelers opt for SWA or a legacy because they are willing to pay just a bit more for a whole lot more schedule flexibility, room and far less hassle (you really, really have to know the rules with Spirit or you'll get slammed in fees).

I would expect NAI to be similar, because I've priced travel on WOW before too and while it's not to the degree of Spirit, it's definitely built along that same logic.

I personally think the ME3 pose a far greater risk to our international flying than NAI...although having NAI around in it's current form (i.e., flag of convenience operation) is a threat as well.

Smokey23

No, I would say 3 legs/day is closer to average. Not as much money in short-haul anymore and I think our pairings reflect that.

Looks like the APC profiles have the new rates. Currently 12yr CA $251/hr SWA vs. $235/hr AA 738 CA. I don't have AA's particulars handy, but I think on rigs and overall work rules, SWA pretty much smokes AA right now.

My $.02 on the whole AA/SWA thang: No wrong answer, both solid airlines. Biggest decision: you must be able to look yourself in the mirror and be truly cool with an entire career of NB domestic flying. If you cannot do this, then go to AA and make a career out of WB flying. If you can, then come to SWA because our version of NB domestic flying is the best there is (IMO.)

One final note that often goes under-reported about SWA and our trips: if your idea of nirvana is min-rig trips with low-block days and long layovers, trust me, you'll have no trouble finding them....they go junior! You don't HAVE to work like a dog at SWA, they just make it so seductively easy to do so!