Latest @ Atlas/Polar
05-29-2008, 11:09 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Boeing
Posts: 132
Latest @ Atlas/Polar
It is time to move on, please read the latest from www.atlasforteamsters.com. 
All Crewmembers, this is Dave Allen with a Teamsters message for May 28, 2008.
Polar and Atlas crewmembers have a choice to make this week. Authorization Cards are due.
The merged seniority list was delivered to Atlas Headquarters today.
Polar crewmembers, you may be just a little bit shell shocked by now. ALPA implied that you would never merge, and now ALPA has crumbled, reversed course and succumbed to the pressure of the decertification. I was going to point out the inconsistencies of your MEC who now publicly support the ALPA decision to merge Polar and Atlas, but in the end I decided that would not be fair. Why? I suspect that ALPA National informed your MEC, that to continue to blast them would result in your MEC being placed in receivership, with a trustee appointed by ALPA. Your MEC, therefore really has no choice but to publically support the merger. Is this the union you really want to belong in, a union who changes course so easily and a union who can so easily control your MEC? What will happen when you need to stand up to the Company, will ALPA be there for you??? Or will they switch sides just as quickly. I think that ALPA's will is broken forever. When the merged seniority list was given to the Company, it triggered the 270-day merger clock and a merger from this point is a certainty, it is not reversible. This is a legal watershed event. ALPA National’s fight against the merger has led you into a position that has lost jobs. ALPA National is supporting grievance actions against Atlas Air as an excuse to destroy your fellow union members, and ultimately is concerned with one thing, keeping our dues money. ALPA National fought the merger with your jobs, these jobs are now lost by one very quick policy reversal. ALPA National caved so easily! I urge you to consider a life under ALPA, and I do mean under. You are a "B" carrier and will be treated as a non-legacy carrier, a "cargo hauler" as long as you remain at ALPA. We are all 2nd class members under ALPA. This is not how a Trade Union should treat its members.
The Atlas and Polar crews have a lot to gripe about... the Company, each other, past sins, the merged seniority list, etc. It is well past time that we put our two groups together and start the healing process. There is a link at the beginning of the text version of this message which leads to a paper on Trade Unionism.
I urge you to read and think about the impact it has on our situations. I fault ALPA National for allowing us to snipe at each other. Allowing our situation is not in keeping with true trade unionism. A trade unionist puts aside strong emotional issues when it will hurt his group or that of a fellow union crewmember. If you were told in the past that we would never merge, that was an opinion subject to debate. The debate is over. We are definitely merging now. We need to mend fences. Polar brothers and sisters, determine which union will serve you better, ALPA National or the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. Ask yourself this question, will I be better off at ALPA in five years (if they survive) as a lonely cargo "B" carrier in a legacy airline paying much higher dues? Or better off in a cargo focused Teamsters organization where trade unionism is not just words on paper? A Teamsters union where there are no "B" carriers.
Polar crews; bring your strong scope clause and some of your work rules, enjoy our pay scale and the better contract we will achieve with our Teamster Local professional negotiator that does not have an IBT or ALPA legacy agenda, just our interests at heart. Join us. Fly any pattern your seniority will hold including all the DHL flying, rest easy knowing that Atlas Worldwide Holdings will be responsible to get you to work with gateway travel. Both MECs will be dissolved and new joint elections will be held. Join us today. Mail in an authorization card.
Goodbye until next time
All Crewmembers, this is Dave Allen with a Teamsters message for May 28, 2008.
Polar and Atlas crewmembers have a choice to make this week. Authorization Cards are due.
The merged seniority list was delivered to Atlas Headquarters today.
Polar crewmembers, you may be just a little bit shell shocked by now. ALPA implied that you would never merge, and now ALPA has crumbled, reversed course and succumbed to the pressure of the decertification. I was going to point out the inconsistencies of your MEC who now publicly support the ALPA decision to merge Polar and Atlas, but in the end I decided that would not be fair. Why? I suspect that ALPA National informed your MEC, that to continue to blast them would result in your MEC being placed in receivership, with a trustee appointed by ALPA. Your MEC, therefore really has no choice but to publically support the merger. Is this the union you really want to belong in, a union who changes course so easily and a union who can so easily control your MEC? What will happen when you need to stand up to the Company, will ALPA be there for you??? Or will they switch sides just as quickly. I think that ALPA's will is broken forever. When the merged seniority list was given to the Company, it triggered the 270-day merger clock and a merger from this point is a certainty, it is not reversible. This is a legal watershed event. ALPA National’s fight against the merger has led you into a position that has lost jobs. ALPA National is supporting grievance actions against Atlas Air as an excuse to destroy your fellow union members, and ultimately is concerned with one thing, keeping our dues money. ALPA National fought the merger with your jobs, these jobs are now lost by one very quick policy reversal. ALPA National caved so easily! I urge you to consider a life under ALPA, and I do mean under. You are a "B" carrier and will be treated as a non-legacy carrier, a "cargo hauler" as long as you remain at ALPA. We are all 2nd class members under ALPA. This is not how a Trade Union should treat its members.
The Atlas and Polar crews have a lot to gripe about... the Company, each other, past sins, the merged seniority list, etc. It is well past time that we put our two groups together and start the healing process. There is a link at the beginning of the text version of this message which leads to a paper on Trade Unionism.
I urge you to read and think about the impact it has on our situations. I fault ALPA National for allowing us to snipe at each other. Allowing our situation is not in keeping with true trade unionism. A trade unionist puts aside strong emotional issues when it will hurt his group or that of a fellow union crewmember. If you were told in the past that we would never merge, that was an opinion subject to debate. The debate is over. We are definitely merging now. We need to mend fences. Polar brothers and sisters, determine which union will serve you better, ALPA National or the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. Ask yourself this question, will I be better off at ALPA in five years (if they survive) as a lonely cargo "B" carrier in a legacy airline paying much higher dues? Or better off in a cargo focused Teamsters organization where trade unionism is not just words on paper? A Teamsters union where there are no "B" carriers.
Polar crews; bring your strong scope clause and some of your work rules, enjoy our pay scale and the better contract we will achieve with our Teamster Local professional negotiator that does not have an IBT or ALPA legacy agenda, just our interests at heart. Join us. Fly any pattern your seniority will hold including all the DHL flying, rest easy knowing that Atlas Worldwide Holdings will be responsible to get you to work with gateway travel. Both MECs will be dissolved and new joint elections will be held. Join us today. Mail in an authorization card.
Goodbye until next time
05-29-2008, 01:43 PM
#2
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by Beagle_Lover
(Dave Allen)
I fault ALPA National for allowing us to snipe at each other.
And, if "ALPA National" had put the thumbscrews to you, you'd've blamed "them" for that, too.
No sense accepting blame if you can put it on someone else, right?
.
05-29-2008, 02:55 PM
#4
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by vagabond
Do you not mean to say "woulda" or one of its cousins "shoulda" and "coulda?"
[Somehow such pedantry is lost on almost everyone here. Sigh.]They're next-door neighbors, and rumored to be cousins.
.
05-30-2008, 05:09 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 335
My responses do not necessarily reflect the views of my local union. With that being said, my responses to this ridiculous post are in bold. Beagle, again, you don't have your facts. There are no cards being thrown around to decertify ALPA on the Polar side of the fence.
Polar and Atlas crewmembers have a choice to make this week. Authorization Cards are due.
Uh, no, only Atlas crewmembers have a choice. I totaly dislike ALPA National but that doesn't mean I won't support my local MEC.
The merged seniority list was delivered to Atlas Headquarters today.
Polar crewmembers, you may be just a little bit shell shocked by now. ALPA implied that you would never merge, and now ALPA has crumbled, reversed course and succumbed to the pressure of the decertification.
Only shocked that ALPA National caved in to the pressure of losing more dues. ALPA never implied that we wouldn't merge. Our CBA says that it's not a merger. That's what a scope clause is all about. Since the back to work agreement the company -- not the union -- has reversed it's decision to a complete and operational merger.
I was going to point out the inconsistencies of your MEC who now publicly support the ALPA decision to merge Polar and Atlas, but in the end I decided that would not be fair. Why? I suspect that ALPA National informed your MEC, that to continue to blast them would result in your MEC being placed in receivership, with a trustee appointed by ALPA.
They have to support it! It's cramdown policy from National. Your MEC tried article eight charges and they were thrown out of court. The only thing our MEC is doing is defending our CBA. Or trying to but their hands are tied now that National has become the pushover that SCABS are made of. Since they can't fight it anymore why should they publicly denounce it? Duhh!
Your MEC, therefore really has no choice but to publically support the merger. Is this the union you really want to belong in, a union who changes course so easily and a union who can so easily control your MEC?
We finally agree on something. I CAN'T STAND ALPA NATIONAL!! Their "taking it back campaign" is now their slogan of no new taxes as they try to resolve their underfunding and overspending by now wanting to take from the 401k monies. What a joke!!
What will happen when you need to stand up to the Company, will ALPA be there for you???
No, they won't but an arbitrator will just has happened in the past.
The Atlas and Polar crews have a lot to gripe about... the Company, each other, past sins, the merged seniority list, etc. It is well past time that we put our two groups together and start the healing process. There is a link at the beginning of the text version of this message which leads to a paper on Trade Unionism.
I urge you to read and think about the impact it has on our situations. I fault ALPA National for allowing us to snipe at each other.
I don't. I fault your MEC for throwing stones and ours not throwing back. Dave Bourne had a lot of falsehoods that were thrown out there. But as you said earlier I won't throw this into a "My daddy is bigger than your Daddy" post. I will refrain just as our MEC did when B.S. was being tossed about to include the battlestar pins for all the SCABS. What a joke ALPA National!
Allowing our situation is not in keeping with true trade unionism. A trade unionist puts aside strong emotional issues when it will hurt his group or that of a fellow union crewmember.
Then why did your MEC bring our MEC up on article eight charges when they were merely trying to defend our CBA scope clause relating to the merger?????????????
If you were told in the past that we would never merge, that was an opinion subject to debate. The debate is over. We are definitely merging now. We need to mend fences.
Switching unions during this critical phase of flight will not help either situation. It needs to be done collectively at the LOCAL level. There are provision put in place in the CBA to help the two carriers out. Now is not the time to bail.
Polar brothers and sisters, determine which union will serve you better, ALPA National or the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. Ask yourself this question, will I be better off at ALPA in five years (if they survive) as a lonely cargo "B" carrier in a legacy airline paying much higher dues? Or better off in a cargo focused Teamsters organization where trade unionism is not just words on paper? A Teamsters union where there are no "B" carriers.
First and foremost, I will never be a brother of a SCAB. I might have to sit beside them in the cockpit to collect my paycheck but that's as far as it goes. Excellent question and my answer is this: We will be better as a group -- not separitists. Merge as one then decertify would be better for both groups.
Polar crews; bring your strong scope clause and some of your work rules, enjoy our pay scale and the better contract . . .
The only thing better in your contract is hourly pay rates. Period. Getting to work on days off, taxable gateway basing, involuntary extension, etc., and over twenty days on the road just doesn't cut it.
Fly any pattern your seniority will hold including all the DHL flying, rest easy knowing that Atlas Worldwide Holdings will be responsible to get you to work with gateway travel.
Here's a better idea. . . why doesn't the company give us our rightful flying so that I can enjoy my career progression that the DHL flying should afford us? I won't even get started on the other callsigns that should be ours as well. But since this is out of my control there is no need to argue about it.
Both MECs will be dissolved and new joint elections will be held. Join us today. Mail in an authorization card.
No thanks. Fight the fight together as an ALPA carrier, get a decent CBA together then see what happens. Now is not the time to jump ship and try to resolve issues as two independent unions . . . at least not until my local MEC tells us to do so. There is way too much at stake right now to decertify and then think it's going to be better trying to get a new contract. That's what leadership is all about and why we don't have any SCABS working at this company!
Polar and Atlas crewmembers have a choice to make this week. Authorization Cards are due.
Uh, no, only Atlas crewmembers have a choice. I totaly dislike ALPA National but that doesn't mean I won't support my local MEC.
The merged seniority list was delivered to Atlas Headquarters today.
Polar crewmembers, you may be just a little bit shell shocked by now. ALPA implied that you would never merge, and now ALPA has crumbled, reversed course and succumbed to the pressure of the decertification.
Only shocked that ALPA National caved in to the pressure of losing more dues. ALPA never implied that we wouldn't merge. Our CBA says that it's not a merger. That's what a scope clause is all about. Since the back to work agreement the company -- not the union -- has reversed it's decision to a complete and operational merger.
I was going to point out the inconsistencies of your MEC who now publicly support the ALPA decision to merge Polar and Atlas, but in the end I decided that would not be fair. Why? I suspect that ALPA National informed your MEC, that to continue to blast them would result in your MEC being placed in receivership, with a trustee appointed by ALPA.
They have to support it! It's cramdown policy from National. Your MEC tried article eight charges and they were thrown out of court. The only thing our MEC is doing is defending our CBA. Or trying to but their hands are tied now that National has become the pushover that SCABS are made of. Since they can't fight it anymore why should they publicly denounce it? Duhh!
Your MEC, therefore really has no choice but to publically support the merger. Is this the union you really want to belong in, a union who changes course so easily and a union who can so easily control your MEC?
We finally agree on something. I CAN'T STAND ALPA NATIONAL!! Their "taking it back campaign" is now their slogan of no new taxes as they try to resolve their underfunding and overspending by now wanting to take from the 401k monies. What a joke!!
What will happen when you need to stand up to the Company, will ALPA be there for you???
No, they won't but an arbitrator will just has happened in the past.
The Atlas and Polar crews have a lot to gripe about... the Company, each other, past sins, the merged seniority list, etc. It is well past time that we put our two groups together and start the healing process. There is a link at the beginning of the text version of this message which leads to a paper on Trade Unionism.
I urge you to read and think about the impact it has on our situations. I fault ALPA National for allowing us to snipe at each other.
I don't. I fault your MEC for throwing stones and ours not throwing back. Dave Bourne had a lot of falsehoods that were thrown out there. But as you said earlier I won't throw this into a "My daddy is bigger than your Daddy" post. I will refrain just as our MEC did when B.S. was being tossed about to include the battlestar pins for all the SCABS. What a joke ALPA National!
Allowing our situation is not in keeping with true trade unionism. A trade unionist puts aside strong emotional issues when it will hurt his group or that of a fellow union crewmember.
Then why did your MEC bring our MEC up on article eight charges when they were merely trying to defend our CBA scope clause relating to the merger?????????????
If you were told in the past that we would never merge, that was an opinion subject to debate. The debate is over. We are definitely merging now. We need to mend fences.
Switching unions during this critical phase of flight will not help either situation. It needs to be done collectively at the LOCAL level. There are provision put in place in the CBA to help the two carriers out. Now is not the time to bail.
Polar brothers and sisters, determine which union will serve you better, ALPA National or the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. Ask yourself this question, will I be better off at ALPA in five years (if they survive) as a lonely cargo "B" carrier in a legacy airline paying much higher dues? Or better off in a cargo focused Teamsters organization where trade unionism is not just words on paper? A Teamsters union where there are no "B" carriers.
First and foremost, I will never be a brother of a SCAB. I might have to sit beside them in the cockpit to collect my paycheck but that's as far as it goes. Excellent question and my answer is this: We will be better as a group -- not separitists. Merge as one then decertify would be better for both groups.
Polar crews; bring your strong scope clause and some of your work rules, enjoy our pay scale and the better contract . . .
The only thing better in your contract is hourly pay rates. Period. Getting to work on days off, taxable gateway basing, involuntary extension, etc., and over twenty days on the road just doesn't cut it.
Fly any pattern your seniority will hold including all the DHL flying, rest easy knowing that Atlas Worldwide Holdings will be responsible to get you to work with gateway travel.
Here's a better idea. . . why doesn't the company give us our rightful flying so that I can enjoy my career progression that the DHL flying should afford us? I won't even get started on the other callsigns that should be ours as well. But since this is out of my control there is no need to argue about it.
Both MECs will be dissolved and new joint elections will be held. Join us today. Mail in an authorization card.
No thanks. Fight the fight together as an ALPA carrier, get a decent CBA together then see what happens. Now is not the time to jump ship and try to resolve issues as two independent unions . . . at least not until my local MEC tells us to do so. There is way too much at stake right now to decertify and then think it's going to be better trying to get a new contract. That's what leadership is all about and why we don't have any SCABS working at this company!
05-30-2008, 11:41 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Boeing
Posts: 132
You are right, I have not but I have been a member of ALPA long enough now to know when it is no longer effective, clearly you have not!
Polar shame on you for the snide remark about scabs. I know facts are not Polar's strong suit, living in a fantasy land is!
Polar shame on you for the snide remark about scabs. I know facts are not Polar's strong suit, living in a fantasy land is!
05-31-2008, 09:11 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 747RJ
Posts: 441
Originally Posted by Beagle_Lover
You are right, I have not but I have been a member of ALPA long enough now to know when it is no longer effective, clearly you have not!
Polar shame on you for the snide remark about scabs. I know facts are not Polar's strong suit, living in a fantasy land is!
Polar shame on you for the snide remark about scabs. I know facts are not Polar's strong suit, living in a fantasy land is!
Beagle, you're coming up on 1 year at AAWH, we all know that. Telling people like PolarFr8 who've been around alot longer than us, that "I know facts are not Polar's strong suit, living in a fantasy land is", is real silly.
Before you start pontificating on facts, you best learn up. Have you read the Polar CBA? Have you talked to any Polar crews prior to spouting off on this board? I've read the Atlas CBA, and talked with your crews. I know PolarFr8 has read the Atlas CBA.
What I don't understand is why certain members of your pilot group don't support Polar's efforts to enforce the CBA. The grievance not to merge isn't a slight to the Atlas group, even though some on both sides seem to feel that way. It's about holding the company's feet to the fire for trying to side step the CBA. What do you think will happen when the merged contract comes up for amendment? Do you think our friends in Purchase will roll over and hand us money and days off? Or do you think they'll say, well, we're starting the Polar Flying Club with off the street pilots, their own payscale and agreement with the company just like they did with AACS? Especially for someone from XJT, you should understand the importance of a good contract and enforcing such.
I mean, I'm just asking. Oh what information are you basing your ideas about Polar on? Any Polar source, or 5Y only?
06-03-2008, 07:18 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Posts: 208
Divide and Conquer, you really have to hand it to the folks at Atlas HQ they really have done a great job. Its not just Polar vs. Atlas, now its Atlas vs. Atlas. Time to try and slip in a pay cut in before no one notices.
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