My longest/most brutal Southern dh was SMF-LAX-IST-FRU all in one shot. It was rough. IST-FRU was in some sort of pseudo Econ/Business, but it was too little, too late.

Rest assured, DH and I were anything but "good buddies." I butted heads with him on a few occasions, losing once or twice along the way.

Also, "you're".

Twice.

Grammer Police! BFD! I'll make sure to correct it next time. Blah, blah!

Don't you have anything better to do with your time? You've got "Spirit" now, and are no longer at SAI. Things are hopefully a bit more optimistic for SAI, and the only thing that you can do is regale us with your (possesive) stories of woe. Boo hoo, poor you, you've suffered so much!

Just like when you were at Southern, all the attention has to be focused on YOU! Enough of your narcissism.

You weren't at SAI long enough to really get the full effect!

You found your fit at Spirit, bugger off.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Thanks I'm crying right now :D

Similar story. Fresh out of IOE, commercial ORD-NRT (12 hours?) then sit in NRT for 5:45 (15 minutes less than the contractually obligated need for a hotel room) then another coach class middle row seat to SYD. Ouch.

Most pointless DH? ORD-PVG-DEL, operate DEL-ADD, DH ADD-FRA-ORD.

Good times.

Somebody needs a hug.

That's more or less the wording I used in the official Fatigue Report that I submitted to the company. Although I think my language was a bit more colorful, as I didn't have to work around auto-censoring algorithms.

Never heard anything more about the incident!

I've deadheaded from CVG-INC and worked the flight INC-HKG. I can't recall the rest rules but I believe the absolute duty day is 24 hours with a four man crew and anything beyond 20 hours needs Chief Pilot approval. Not positive though. Again this is just duty day.

:confused: Do you really mean Yinchuan or is it Inchon? Either way, they DH four pilots to Asia to operate a 3-4 hour flight just so they can use 4-man crew rest rules and immediately operate upon arrival?

Apparently the union leadership met with Flynn today. Any early Intel on what was discussed?

Yes I meant ICN. Not all of us were deadheading. Some of the crew were already there.

Do you operate short legs with four pilots like that all the time? Interesting scenario. Some are rested, some are deadheading into the flight, all are somehow under four pilot rules. All so that the limiting pilot is legal to operate a 4 hour flight that could have been done by just two of the pilots already there and rested.

24 hour duty day extendable to 30 with CP approval. Unless there has been a recent change.

I love Southern DH stories.
Mine was my first trip off IOE. DH BOS-EWR-HKG. Sit for a few days. They decide they don't need to double crew the trip I'm supposed to operate, to LGG, and dispatch it as a heavy crew. An hour after the operating flight leaves, the hotel calls and kicks me out, since it is Chinese New Year, they're oversold and I don't have a reservation. The company can't find me a room in HK, so they DH me HKG-ZRH-BRU. I get to my hotel in Brussels for a 24 hour rest, lay down to sleep, and the phone rings. My cab is waiting to take me to LGG. That date line thing was just impossible for schedulers to figure out. I get to LGG, have a whole day off, and get a call to get in another cab go back to BRU to DH to JFK where I had a 10 hour break before finally operating a revenue leg. Which is how I made my first MileagePlus Elite status.

The one that torqued me off the most was when they paid $600 to DH me in coach from KUL to HKG, and there were open business seats on the same airplane for $400.

That's when I knew I was working for sadists.

That's correct. Finally made myself go look it up.
I think I was thinking the US flight, four pilot crew which is 20 hours duty in any 24 hours. Which we never do here.

All of these horrific deadhead stories are true. However, we've done much less international deadhead recently under DHL than in the past (especially when the B747's were chasing ACMI contracts). SAI is engaged in a different type of flying currently. Most of the 777 pilots start and end in either CVG or LAX. International does still happen occasionally to HKG. I recently had a 3 leg deadhead to HKG in Economy and there is no other way to describe it other than it sucked!

Thankfully more established and powerful pilot groups in the industry have been able to negotiate 100% deadhead pay, Business or better, travel banks, etc that make deadhead at least tolerable. That was a goal when SAI's negotiating team put together our current, crappy CBA. Keep in mind this was over 9 years ago.

The VP of Ops that was on the other side of the negotiations at Southern (Mike H. formerly of Polar) was adamant that he was not going to give away Business Class or Better as he had during negotiations at Polar. We traded that for higher hourly and some work rules. As it was, Jim Neff (SAI owner at the time) canned Mike after the CBA was signed for giving away what he did. We got all we could at the time. Nobody envisioned we'd still be stuck under this dog in 2016.

The company follows the CBA when it comes to deadhead travel. Although we all wish they'd take mercy on us, we can't expect them to follow the CBA in some areas and not others. It is what it is until a new CBA is signed.

Southern operates the 777 under the very lax flight/duty time limits of either Flag or Supplemental contained in our OpSpecs. Most other pilot groups have been able to negotiate more humane limits. Because most pilot groups don't need to suffer under the CFR limits the FAA has been loathe to change them.

Mixing various crew compositions creates scheduling havoc due to Flag CFR 121.487 and its sister Supplemental CFR 121.525. You can't keep mixing 2 pilot, 3 pilot, and 4 pilot crews throughout the month. SAI's current 777 route structure includes legs that could be flown with 2 pilots (under 8 hours), 3 pilots (under 12 hours), and 4 pilots (no flight time limit just a 30 hour duty limit). Hence, most trips keep either a 3 pilot composition or 4 pilot even if its a 1:45 leg from Leipzig to East Midlands. It's a waste to have 4 pilots for a short leg, but it sure is nice having a voice activated coffee maker. :p

If anyone is to blame it's the lax rules governed by the FAA. The management of ACMI carriers simply exploit those limits and any loopholes in their respective CBA's. It's up to the pilot groups to negotiate tighter limits. If every airline's management could throw out their pilot group's CBA's we'd all be suffering under CFR limits as management exploited them to maximize "efficiency", i.e. profits!

"What be the Zulu time where you be at?"

A few were sadists, no doubt. But most were good people, if only clueless.

"Captain, I'm trying to find you a commercial flight home to Fort Lauderdale, but for some reason I just can't find any direct flights out of Miami! I found some flights with connections, though! Would you prefer to go through Atlanta or Mexico City?

Now that's priceless.

And now for your amalgamated contact, take half of the bad from one and half the bad from the other and bam! here is your new CBA to vote on!

I've done CVG-BAH-HKG in the back. Straight through. Twice.... 22hr deadhead for 11hrs of pay.

Also love it when:
"Your leg cancelled, we'll bring you to base and you'll company deadhead from there"
--"am I pay protected?" (Stupid question)
"No but you'll make 50% of the deadhead"
--"okay, then buy me a ticket from home"
"Perfect."

**looks at itinerary**
Ticket cost 3x's the amount of the value of the cancelled leg... Spending dimes to save nickels.

Email will be out soon on the meeting. Not good. Atlas/Polar all over again.

Only if we let it be. Now is the time to show our solidarity.

Well Damn:confused:

You mean a merger?? Going thru an arbitator??

Just rumor right now. Merger with a amalgamation of current contracts. Voted on, when rejected, long drawn out process to follow. YEARS to a new contract!

Damn.. I would think they would comeup with improvements especially with the current turnover rates at both places and the amount of new flying they want to do.. But i guess thats management for ya..

Man, less then a year on here and I am updating resumes, what a shame. Love the job and crews, but if they think I would take even one concession, forget it. All in.

Let's wait and see what the union puts out, before we jump to conclusions. I am hoping that both SAI and AWW put some correspondence out as well, that way we can at least get a better idea of what is going on from multiple perspectives.

Generally, from what I have heard, (someone in attendance) is that it is not going to be immediate, but that overall it will be ok.

Things just can never be easy.

What we have been saying at SAI, since the announcement of the acquisition, "Cautiously Optimistic". Still holding that course.

Hoping it gets better, soon!

F#%k Purchase. And F#%k Atlas. Airlines apps here I come.

LOL tell us how you really feel!

The company isn't just going to roll out the red carpet for the pilots. Just another fear grenade lobbed over to our side to instil doubt that we can truly get a leading contract. Maybe give the process a chance before grabbing an escape reel and jumping overboard. The merger isn't even a month in and only a single (very productive) negotiations meeting. This race is far too early to guess a winner.

The rumor is they scrapped the TAs from that "very productive" negotiations meeting.

Where's the email? Cmon guys!

Why? Makes no sense. Both contracts have time limits on negotiations and arbitration clause that would kick in to preclude a long drawn out process. Arbitration carries a much higher risk for the company given the industry and company financials .

They will want to get this done.

Would be helpful what anyone at SA hears regarding interview and class dates in the near future,,, no change, delayed, or any other type of influence expected due the buyout deal.

Cliffnotes (at least what I took from the Southern side):

-EXCOs from both locals met with big wigs from Atlas (Flynn & Co.)
-Mgmt has no intention of running parallel ops; merged into a single cert which could take up to 15 months
-Mgmt also wants both pilot groups under 1 contract/1 list
-Both locals agree on a 1:1 DOH integration ASAP
-Mgmt disagrees, and wants to drag everything out as long as possible (to take advantage of Southern's cheap labor cost, and likely wage both groups against each other)
-Union wants both lists under the current contract, then negotiate a new CBA (keep in mind previous bankruptcy is supposed to give way to expedited negotiations)
-Mgmt wants to blend both contracts (a median of the two), then merge both lists (better for Southern but not good, worse for Atlas)
-Mgmt asked local for a more detailed plan of what they'd like to be done, as they may be open to other options
-Union believes it would be beneficial to both sides to get us all under one roof/payscale/contract as soon as possible
-Mgmt will overlook everything and both parties will hopefully meet again in a few days for further details

Anyone from either side feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted anything...

I was just looking at the pay rates and it appears 737 FO’s would take a pay cut year two from year one and get a 45 cent pay raise on year three from year one, Ouch!

e. Light Lift Equipment
For any aircraft with a MTOW of less than one hundred twentyfive
thousand (125,000) kilograms, seventy-five and ninety-one,
one hundredths percent (75.91%) of the rates of pay set forth in
Section 3, rounded to the nearest whole cent, shall be
applicable.


79.6 79.6
100 0.7591 75.91
105.45 0.7591 80.047095
111.14 0.7591 84.366374
117.08 0.7591 88.875428
123.27 0.7591 93.574257
128.81 0.7591 97.779671
132.67 0.7591 100.709797
136.65 0.7591 103.731015
140.75 0.7591 106.843325
144.98 0.7591 110.054318
149.33 0.7591 113.356403

Oh yea with a THREE YEAR EQUIPMENT lock you will get NO PAY raise until you bid off the equipment to get? you guessed it another THREE YEAR LOCK!

Bend over and grab yer ankles, here it comes - dry!

i'd have to look it up again, but i think there's something in there that keeps the pay from going down the second year, even though the formula would make it lower than first-year pay. but yeah. ouch.

I found what you are talking about, that's great, you're stuck at first year pay for three years, much better. :cool:

Subsection 32.B. shall not be applicable to
such new-hires until they reach their second (2nd) year of Company
Longevity; provided, Crewmembers in their second year of Company
Longevity and assigned to Light Lift Aircraft as defined below shall
remain at their first year rate of pay until they reach their third (3rd)
year of Company Longevity.

What's to become of soap and briney?