And then do you go to your 4th year pay??

As drafted? When reaching 3 years of accumulated company service (unless defined otherwise) you resume contract scale progression. 3 year B scale anyway you slice it. Going to need bigger lanyards it seems.

Had wrote a more detailed post, regarding all of this - got lost while trying to post it. In short:

• Atlas has no intention of integrating the companies. "Merger" is never mentioned, only "acquisition" and "subsidiary". Are acquisitions and subsidiaries covered in any CBA, or is this a legal interpretation issue?

• SAI was under-represented in the first meeting. They are seen as being totally irrelevant. The SAI MEC rolled over to the whims of the 1224 and Atlas union. Atlas management sees the only purpose of the SAI union presence, as an opportunity to whipsaw the Atlas union with the threat of CBA "amalgamation".

• It is not fiscally expedient to run both companies together. SAI operational costs are just too cheap to pass up. Why would Atlas purchase them and immediately move to a more expensive operational model?

• Any rhetoric from Atlas to the contrary is a red herring (alluding to integration in the future), used in an effort to stall or irreputably damage the ability of the Atlas union to effectively negotiate their CBA

• Atlas management is constantly stating that this deal is still predicated on DOT and other entity approval and that it is no where close to being finalized or realized. I doubt that it is their true intent to purchase Southern... unless they get to run it completely separately into perpetuity.

• If the purchase is ever finalized, unless the Teamsters/1224 can force an immediate integration which might not be legally possible, we are all collectively scr*wed.

So, discussing possible 737 pay rates at this point is rather a moot point.

Items to at least consider:

1. "Missouri Senators Clare McCaskill and Christopher Bond, concerned about the seniority integration treatment of employees at Trans World Airlines ("TWA") following its purchase by American Airlines and integration of the two airlines' operations and workforce, introduced legislation to guarantee labor protective provisions to airline employees with respect to seniority integration for certain covered transactions.

The legislation, known as the McCaskill-Bond statute, was signed into law in December 2007 and is codified at 49 U.S.C. § 42112."

2. NMB Single Carrier Status

3. SAI; CBA Section 1 Successorship language

They were never coming back from this meeting all smiles.

Interesting. Straight from the unions email:

"Atlas fully plans to integrate the crew groups, as well as the Southern certificate into Atlas. We have received multiple assurances that Southern will not be operated as a parallel operation or double-breasted operation. Bill Flynn sated, and I quote, “We have a goal of one team, one Atlas.” After meeting with him, we do believe that those are his intentions. Atlas states that the regulatory process of merging the Southern certificate into Atlas could take 15 months."

Seems like a merger to me...

The 737 is C scale. The 767 is already B scale. :P

And you believe what they say? I'll believe it when I see it in print - from Atlas management.

McCaskill-Bond. Yeah, that's an easy read. Fairly difficult to find anything that is definitive in that stuff, not to say that it could be of some benefit, though the AA - TWA thing is still a train wreck.

NMB Single Carrier Status - this is a possible solution, have seen some Teamsters documents regarding this issue. The thing here is time and expense.

Quick perusal of the SAI CBA shows "merger" only, and is considered such only if the operations/infrastructure are taken up the successor company. If SAI remains standalone, this is a moot point. Lots of holes in that one.



Gotta go, have a show time.

They, Southern has 23 more coming.

Just like the 10-10-10 plan....yeah...believe it.

SAI has been having trouble adding two to three airframes a year. And they don't seem to be getting any better at doing it. Sure, there is potential. Like an acorn could become the largest oak tree in the forest. But not in our lifetime.

There's really nothing for them to gain by keeping the two groups separate. I see the NAC 737s in CVG picking up Southern's slack; they can't staff their jets as-is.

Maybe they have another plan, but right now, the information we have is that there's an intention to merge the two lists. It makes the most sense, and any other theory about running separate entities is only a theory.

Please STOP posting your opinions as some sort of list of facts. Rumor/fear mongering and panic inducement do no good for our cause. Lets stick with the facts as distributed by the union and if there just HAVE to be opinions posted, clearly identify them as such.

Remain calm for chrissake. We're professional pilots here and we're supposed to have a better grip on emergency situations than running in circles shouting that the sky is falling.

Sheesh ...

8

[QUOTE=longhauler;2063795]I found what you are talking about, that's great, you're stuck at first year pay for three years, much better. :cool:

Nope. Don't forget the $0.45 raise in year three. :rolleyes:

emergency is an EICAS message, this is smoke with no discernible source and it makes all of us nervous. We have pulled CB's only to think that is the Li batteries in bulk that we can do nothing about and we are screwed!

And KII (Kalitta Charters is doing CVG-AUS)

Yes, it is. The McCaskill-Bond legislation was written in RESPONSE to the AA/TWA debacle, to prevent such a recurrence. One of the things it does is protect all the employee groups in a merger: If one side believes they are getting screwed by the seniority integration, all they have to do is say they want arbitration...then the seniority integration goes to an arbiter and they decide the integration. From what 1224 says, the integration has already been agreed to by both the Atlas and Southern MECs.

DHL chose Southern for the 28 737 for CVG domestic hub ops. They were the cheapest (ABX turned DHL down, then ATI accepted the DHL offer with a decent 737 contract. DHL then went to Southern as they offered much cheaper). Southern was SO cheap, in fact, they can't staff the planes. They have 5? operating 737s, because they can't get the pilots to staff any more.

I would not be surprised if this was one of the factors that created this merger. Southern couldn't do the 737 operation, so DHL came to Atlas to buy Southern, so that Atlas could fix the situation and hopefully get the 737s up and running. Keeping Southern separate would do NOTHING to fix the 737 manning problems.

BUT, we are having problems staffing the 767 because the 767 T&Cs are relatively low: I think it will be difficult for Atlas, also, to get the pilots to staff the 28 737s unless we improve our 737 T&Cs.

Namaste...

Smoke with no discernible source is also an emergency. If we have burning batteries then it's time to put the big jet in the drink and take our chances in a raft. If you're ready to ditch the whole plane at this point, go right ahead. Me? I'm still thinking we can work as a crew and fight the fire ... with fire if necessary!

8

If atlas really has some stuff in the contract that keeps 737 pilots at first year pay for 3 years, (i think this is one of the most ridiculous things ive seen so far... Wonder how the group signed off on this as part of the contract..) atlas will have problems too because no one will come and work at atlas knowing they will be at 50 hour guarrentee pay and then still first year pay for the next 2 more years... I hope there can be some voting done to get rid of this clause in the contract..

It does and I believe I cut and pasted the portions of the CBA.

Does Atlas's language keep the 737 crews home based?
That was a deal breaker for most of the guys at SAI who thought about taking a Captaincy.

Those rates of pay you posted a couple pages ago are significant raises from the current SAI 737 rates. About $15 an hour across the board.

The 50 hour guarantee is only for the first year pilots. On the 747, I was only at the 50 hour mark the first month when I had not yet started OE. I do not know about the 767. All subsequent years have a 62 hour guarantee. Again, my experience on the 747 is that I have been under 70 hours only twice in five years.

The two or three year "pay lock" on the light lift equipment was to protect against a pay cut from year one pay. In other words, this year, second year 747 FO pay is exactly $100.00. All the other fleet types are based as a percentage off of this rate.

Over 500,000 kilos MGTOW (i.e.A-380) pays at 108.03% of the base 747 pay.
375,000 - 500,000k = 100%
250,000 - 375,000k = 91.97%
125,000 - 250,000k = 83.94%
Under 125,000k = 75.91%

This year Atlas FO pay rates are:
1 - $79.60
2 - $100.00
3 - $105.45
4 - $111.14
5 - $117.08

So... year 2 pay on a 737 would be $75.91 with the percentage scheme, but the contract keeps you protected at $79.60. Year 3 pay on the 737 would be 75.91% of 105.45 or $80.05, so your pay would actually go up a whopping 45 cents.

Yes, the pay scales suck, but at least now you have an idea of what they actually would be for different equipment.

8

Ok so that makes sense now.. So it seems like you still get a pay raise from the SAI scale no matter what.. And once you upgrade on the 73, you would go into the captain rates with the same formula..

yes it would. 75.91% of

1 154.11
2 158.73
3 163.49
4 168.40
5 173.45
6 178.66
7 184.01
8 189.54
9 195.22
10 201.08
11 207.11
12 213.32

Ok, correct me if im wrong but currently sai 737 pilots are stuck in cvg 18 days a month never going over the 61 hr guarrantee. With the atlas 4.95 rig thats 89.1 credit hrs per month or 1069.20 per year. Using that assumption and 75.91% of the current atlas 747 pay rates i come up with the following numbers vs the current sai pay. Yes, i want a new contract based on substancially higher numbers but im just looking at a current scenario if merged at the current atlas contract.

Sai
Year. Fo Rate. Per year. Ca rate. Per year
1. 61.22. 44,813. 106.84. 78,206
2. 65.57. 47,997. 110.51. 80,893
3. 70.24. 51,415. 114.30. 83,667
4. 75.23. 55,068. 118.22. 86,537
5. 77.50. 56,730. 122.27. 89,501
12. 95.31. 69,766. 150.38. 110,078

Atlas
1. 60.42. 64,601. 116.98. 125,075
2. 75.91. 81,162. 120.49. 128,827
3. 80.85. 85,589. 124.10. 132,687
4. 84.60. 90,454. 127.83. 136,675
5. 88.87. 95,019. 131.89. 141,016
12. 113.10. 120,926. 161.93. 173,103

I would agree with this in broad terms just remember the 4.95 rig or "CRT" as Atlas calls it is paid by the hour so 4.95/24=.20625 for each hour you are on company time. Since CVG is a base you will probably be paid around 17 days or 408 hours on company time which equals around 84 hours of pay. Also if the company doesn't need you they will send you home early and you will not get pay credit --- one of many things we need to fix.

The rig is one hour of pay for each 4.95 hours on the schedule. So 4.85 hours pay for a 24 day.

Published today.

CHAIRMAN'S UPDATE:

Dear Fellow Atlas Crew Members,

I want to take a moment to brief you on a very disappointing set of events that have taken place over the past two days here in New York City. Your negotiating team came to New York with the expectation of continuing good faith Section 6 negotiations for the purpose of reaching an amended CBA. On the first day, Monday, March 14, the company did not meet with us until 4:44 p.m., and then only to tell us that they had no response to the four outstanding CBA articles which the union negotiating team had presented to them last month. It was obvious that the company had done no work on any of it and, again, was unprepared. This, despite the company’s assurances at the last meeting that its negotiators would return with Article 30 (Uniforms) and respond to the Framework Agreement that we had provided to the company’s senior representatives this past December. Quite simply, the company again reneged on its commitments.

At Monday’s late, abbreviated meeting, the company indicated that it would not be responding to any articles which the union had presented and would not be presenting any proposals of its own either. The company stated that it would, however, respond to the union’s framework proposal on how to proceed with Section 6 negotiations for both the Atlas and Southern pilots.
On Tuesday, March 15, at approximately 3:00 p.m. Local 1224 President Captain Dan Wells received a last minute call from John Dietrich advising that the company would attempt to force the union and the Atlas and Southern Air pilots into an amalgamation process. Dietrich’s plan is to force the pilots to pay for Atlas’ $110 million cash acquisition of SAI and to pay for the more than $100 million in litigation settlement payments and FAA fines that it has racked up over the last few months. Dietrich’s focus is, therefore, to once again deny the Atlas pilots of our rightful ability to proceed down the Section 6 negotiations path. A few minutes later, at around 3:15 p.m., the Atlas managers, their lawyers and agents entered for the first time of the day to present their version of what they are calling a “Transition Agreement”. This document is punitive and is an underhanded, and possibly illegal, anti-union document for many reasons.

It is clear that the company is attempting to undermine and suppress the legal rights of our crew members. The path suggested by the company will devastate and set back, in a very detrimental fashion, the lives and careers of most of our pilots.
It is now time for you to voice your displeasure to the company. We must and will remain professional at all times, but we must lawfully and firmly let management know that we will not accept their assault on our jobs, our wages, our benefits and our profession. If we don’t, we will be stuck with our current CBA or something less. The company says it recognizes that the world has changed and is not seeking to cut our pilots’ wages and benefits, but history tells us that Dietrich’s words are meaningless. Our CBA is the product of an amalgamation/interest arbitration, and the company and its lawyers maneuvered that process to obtain sub-standard, arbitrator-imposed contract terms that we are now stuck under. The amalgamation/interest arbitration that the company is pushing for now would require an arbitrator to choose terms from our sub-standard CBA or worse, Southern Air’s bankruptcy contract. The company anticipates that it will take 12-15 months to reach its objective. That timeline is based on the company’s intention to force the pilots to accept it. The company has also indicated that if we do not accept its plan, the process will drag on for many, many years. The company’s entire approach is not acceptable.

I will have more details as we move forward. I can assure you that this EXCO and your union will fight tooth and nail with everything at our disposal and more. However, we cannot do this without you doing the same. The time is now to engage forcefully in what will be a long, hard-fought war between Atlas Air and us, the crew members.

Fraternally,

Captain Robert J. Kirchner

Executive Council Chairman
APA Teamsters Local 1224

Are you guys hiring?

F & H 101. They will drag it out and try to wear the group down. Stay Strong

What parts of each contract do they want to amalgamate?

All of it. The company wants to negotiate an amalgamation which means any section that can't be reached through a tentative agreement would go to automatic binding arbitration. The pilot group doesn't get to vote on it, which is how our current CBA came about.

Dear Fellow Atlas Crew Members,

I want to take a moment to brief you on a very disappointing set of events that have taken place over the past two days here in New York City. Your negotiating team came to New York with the expectation of continuing good faith Section 6 negotiations for the purpose of reaching an amended CBA. On the first day, Monday, March 14, the company did not meet with us until 4:44 p.m., and then only to tell us that they had no response to the four outstanding CBA articles which the union negotiating team had presented to them last month. It was obvious that the company had done no work on any of it and, again, was unprepared. This, despite the company’s assurances at the last meeting that its negotiators would return with Article 30 (Uniforms) and respond to the Framework Agreement that we had provided to the company’s senior representatives this past December. Quite simply, the company again reneged on its commitments.

At Monday’s late, abbreviated meeting, the company indicated that it would not be responding to any articles which the union had presented and would not be presenting any proposals of its own either. The company stated that it would, however, respond to the union’s framework proposal on how to proceed with Section 6 negotiations for both the Atlas and Southern pilots.

On Tuesday, March 15, at approximately 3:00 p.m. Local 1224 President Captain Dan Wells received a last minute call from John Dietrich advising that the company would attempt to force the union and the Atlas and Southern Air pilots into an amalgamation process. Dietrich’s plan is to force the pilots to pay for Atlas’ $110 million cash acquisition of SAI and to pay for the more than $100 million in litigation settlement payments and FAA fines that it has racked up over the last few months. Dietrich’s focus is, therefore, to once again deny the Atlas pilots our rightful ability to proceed down the Section 6 negotiations path. A few minutes later, at around 3:15 p.m., the Atlas managers, their lawyers and agents entered for the first time of the day to present their version of what they are calling a “Transition Agreement”. This document is punitive, anti-union, underhanded, and possibly illegal for many reasons.

It is clear that the company is attempting to undermine and suppress the legal rights of our crew members. The path suggested by the company will devastate and set back, in a very detrimental fashion, the lives and careers of most of our pilots.

It is now time for you to voice your displeasure to the company. We must and will remain professional at all times, but we must lawfully and firmly let management know that we will not accept their assault on our jobs, our wages, our benefits and our profession. If we don’t, we will be stuck with our current CBA or something less. The company says it recognizes that the world has changed and is not seeking to cut our pilots’ wages and benefits, but history tells us that Dietrich’s words are meaningless. Our CBA is the product of an amalgamation/interest arbitration, and the company and its lawyers maneuvered that process to obtain sub-standard, arbitrator-imposed contract terms that we are now stuck under. The amalgamation/interest arbitration that the company is pushing for now would require an arbitrator to choose terms from our sub-standard CBA or worse, Southern Air’s bankruptcy contract. The company anticipates that it will take 12-15 months to reach its objective. That timeline is based on the company’s intention to force the pilots to accept it. The company has also indicated that if we do not accept its plan, the process will drag on for many, many years. The company’s entire approach is not acceptable.

I will have more details as we move forward. I can assure you that this EXCO and your union will fight tooth and nail with everything at our disposal and more. However, we cannot do this without you doing the same. The time is now to engage forcefully in what will be a long, hard-fought war between Atlas Air and us, the crew members.

Fraternally,

Captain Robert J. Kirchner
Executive Council Chairman
APA Teamsters Local 1224

What steps are you guys going to do to voice your displeasure to the company. Lone Wolf or a 1224 organized campaign?

Man this is getting old. What a way to run an airline.

Sorry to hear about the problems over there. I bet if you got Chuck Norris on the negotiating committee, all your troubles would go away. Chuck would probably scare all the Southern guys off as well.

The Southern guys support everything the Atlas pilots are trying to obtain in their negotiations. In the end we will all be one group and God knows we all deserve a raise.

Again, nice try, JC. Or DS. Or Radioactive.

The answer to both companies is to come over to Purple. The pay is terrific and the QOL even better. The classes are expected to be 30/month for the near future. That way you can forget whatever Atlas will throw your way, which probably won't be much. Join a winner.

Looks that this is the wakeup call that the union needed. They were under the impression that the company was going to give the pilots an industry leading contract and that the Atlas was going to play ball. Man were they wrong.. I guess 5 more years under the current contract is whats coming. For SAI big raises and work rules will come to effect. They will be happy.

This +1.


United is also looking for about a million new pilots.
Why wait a half decade for a half decent contract?

True, a ten year 777 Captain will have to wait until his third year as a United FO to break even, but the 16% company contribution to your 401(k) will make up the difference fairly quickly.