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-   -   Possible Pilot Deviation (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/109714-possible-pilot-deviation.html)

JamesNoBrakes 12-06-2017 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucknut (Post 2478417)
The FAA could consider commercial manuevers as Aerobatic flight

Please, explain.

Bucknut 12-06-2017 08:23 AM

Re: Deviation
 
I stated above it is not a get out of jail card like some pilots believe. You stated, "it can be used after the judgment by the NTSB". Otherwise it is not automatic forgiveness for the event and you may still get the violation. Is this not correct? My point was that it may help and be proactive!

JamesNoBrakes 12-06-2017 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucknut (Post 2478526)
I stated above it is not a get out of jail card like some pilots believe. You stated, "it can be used after the judgment by the NTSB". Otherwise it is not automatic forgiveness for the event and you may still get the violation. Is this not correct? My point was that it may help and be proactive!

You WILL still get the violation if you are using the ASRS, it’s not a question. The ONLY thing it does in the eyes of the FAA is waive the penalty associated with the violation. So for the purpose of PRIA, there will still be a violation. If the case didn’t make it to the violation stage due to some other reason, it’s irrelevent. Again, rare these days due to Compliance Actions, but the ASRS does not act like ASAP and provide any other protections, nor is the data used by the FAA.

There’s a lot of misunderstanding out there on this, so it’s good to be clear.

JohnBurke 12-06-2017 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koco (Post 2478194)
Hello everyone! Im a private instrument rated pilot in United States. Im new in the aviation field, and I recently found myself 500 ft. above the floor of class B airspace without authorization. I was with my instructor practicing some commercial maneuvers. Before landing, the tower controller told me that there was a possible pilot deviation and that I needed to call a number. After landing, I called the number and the lady wrote down my name, pilot number, and phone number and told me that somebody will contact me. I called the same number next day, and they told me that they send the report to the local FSDO, and that somebody will contact me in a few days. What should I expect? What should I do? Did anybody recently have a similar experience? What did you do to solve the problem? Thank you in advance for any comment or suggestion.

The purpose of that call to the tower was singular: your information was obtained to be used against you. There is no other purpose.

Until you put yourself in that aircraft via that phone call, the FAA had no way of putting you there.

You know that thing attorneys do; tell you not to say anything until you speak to an attorney? There's a reason.

Most of the time, what the FAA has, the pilot gave them. Don't do that.

Complete the ASRS report.

JNB is correct: the ASRS does not prevent a violation; it offers you the opportunity to not serve the penalty of a violation, but the violation still stays on your record. If, for example, you're given a 90 day suspension, the FAA may not actually suspend for 90 days, but you'll still have the violation on your record.

It is not a get out of jail free card by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes (Post 2478440)
I work for the FAA. We don't see ASRS reports. They only come into play at the end of an enforcement or after an NTSB judge has rendered a decision against you, then it's kind of a "get out of jail free" card that can be used to waive the penalty of an enforcement. An enforcement means suspension, revocation, civil penalty, etc. The ASRS report has nothing to do with the investigation. We don't see them. I'd be curious to know where you got this understanding?

I don't see sonicflyer's posts as he's on my ignore list, but I see your post, responding to his quote. He is correct.

The FAA may not take enforcement action based on anything learned from the ASRS report. It's not sent to you, but an airman who introduced it early in the process or sends it with a response might provide it. In such a case, if submitted timely and not an intentional violation or a violation of law, the body of the report is protected and none of that information can be used as first-source for enforcement purposes. It can't be used as an admission, either.

The same is not true of the title strip, which is not protected. A pilot who identifies himself as violating a regulation as part of his title may find that the title strip of the ASRS report can be used against him. It does not enjoy the same protection or immunity, and while the ASRS doesn't send the reports to the FAA, inspectors have been known to peruse them, looking. While the FAA can't act based on the ASRS report body, revealing too much can show the inspector where to look to dig deeper, or reveal something the inspector didn't know in the first place. I have known more than a few inspectors who do this, and who are of a mind to do this...going after people for everything from a talk in church to having overheard a casual 3rd party conversation.

Hang one's hat on the new and friendlier FAA if one wants. Not wise.

JNB may not be lynching pilots, but he's an army of one. There are a lot of others out there who won't hesitate to do so.

Koco 12-06-2017 03:34 PM

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I really appreciate them. This is a big lesson learned. It wont happen again. Thank you all!!!

TommyDevito 12-06-2017 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 2478615)

JNB may not be lynching pilots, but he's an army of one. There are a lot of others out there who won't hesitate to do so.

I asked before and so far no one has been able to show me.

Under current guidance, as long as the airman is being cooperative, and the airman did not intentionally commit an action, how can he be "lynched" as you put it? I've been through the Compliance Action guidance and I can't find that avenue a rogue inspector could use to push an enforcement and do it successfully.

ja2c 12-06-2017 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyDevito (Post 2478865)
I asked before and so far no one has been able to show me.

Under current guidance, as long as the airman is being cooperative, and the airman did not intentionally commit an action, how can he be "lynched" as you put it? I've been through the Compliance Action guidance and I can't find that avenue a rogue inspector could use to push an enforcement and do it successfully.

I would advise any pilot not to take JohnBurkes advice. Be up front, honest, and compliant. When you call the tower, give them your info. The inspector will find out who the PIC is anyway. The Compliance Philosophy is used if you are being compliant. If you choose not to be, theres other avenues to take. Personally, Id much rather receive verbal counseling than enforcement action.

JohnBurke 12-06-2017 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ja2c (Post 2478899)
I would advise any pilot not to take JohnBurkes advice.

It's your career funeral.

Would you take an attorney's advice?

JamesNoBrakes 12-06-2017 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 2478615)

I don't see sonicflyer's posts as he's on my ignore list, but I see your post, responding to his quote. He is correct.

The FAA may not take enforcement action based on anything learned from the ASRS report. It's not sent to you, but an airman who introduced it early in the process or sends it with a response might provide it. In such a case, if submitted timely and not an intentional violation or a violation of law, the body of the report is protected and none of that information can be used as first-source for enforcement purposes. It can't be used as an admission, either.

The same is not true of the title strip, which is not protected. A pilot who identifies himself as violating a regulation as part of his title may find that the title strip of the ASRS report can be used against him. It does not enjoy the same protection or immunity, and while the ASRS doesn't send the reports to the FAA, inspectors have been known to peruse them, looking. While the FAA can't act based on the ASRS report body, revealing too much can show the inspector where to look to dig deeper, or reveal something the inspector didn't know in the first place. I have known more than a few inspectors who do this, and who are of a mind to do this...going after people for everything from a talk in church to having overheard a casual 3rd party conversation.

Hang one's hat on the new and friendlier FAA if one wants. Not wise.

JNB may not be lynching pilots, but he's an army of one. There are a lot of others out there who won't hesitate to do so.

Well, it's good to see where this comes from, like I said, i had no idea. It's neither in our Orders, Guidance or any processes we have to look at anything in or relating to ASRS reports. We don't have links to the databases or anything of that nature. I wouldn't even know how or where to start, since it's just not something we do. If this was happening, any semi-competent lawyer would have a field day with it, tearing into counsel if it came to a trial. In our old processes it did ask whether the airman submitted an ASAP, to prevent us from going down enforcement roads when the investigation had to be entered correctly as an ASAP to protect the airman's file.

Yoda2 12-06-2017 08:52 PM

Koco,

Sure there are the horror stories, though in the vast majority of these types of cases the FAA just wants to know what happened, and if applicable, that you learned a lesson, and be reasonably assured it will not happen again. They will generally take the situation and your experience level into consideration as well. When I have been given the number to call, I chose to call and be forthcoming, polite and deferential. On occasion they just want to ask a question about your operation or why you did something in a particular manner, even if there was no violation. I've had that also. I have had to call a few times, over many years. It worked out fine in each case. If you do not call, you are then essentially/effectively forcing the FAA's hand, which can trigger a formal investigation. That's typically when things get ugly. I am not making any recommendations, except to send the NASA form, just sharing my experience. Good luck!


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