Scope clauses for ASA/Comair
09-27-2008, 09:15 AM
#1
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Scope clauses for ASA/Comair
I searched the forum and was unable to come up with any specifics, so, hence, the questions below. I was wondering if anyone from ASA or Comair would be kind enough to explain equipment scope clauses.
1. What is a scope clause and how does it affect the equipment that ASA/Comair receive?
2. What are the chances for ASA getting the 900? If they do,when? What would have to be done in order for them to get the 900?
Some other questions that I have are:
3. Will ASA or Comair come up with a payscale for the 900?
4. Given the current industry downturn, do any of you think that the magnitude of hiring will return in 2009 after the elections?
5. What are a person's chances of being assigned to either the 700 or 900 after being offered to go to training?
6. How does ASA and Comair handle seniority of those who successfully complete IOE .
7. Do you think if hired by Comair, and living in ATL, would the commute to CVG or even JFK be difficult?
I'm preparing for war in time of peace. My heart is set on either of these two. I would like to hear from those who fly for either airline or even if you don't, your input is well received.
Thanks.
atp
1. What is a scope clause and how does it affect the equipment that ASA/Comair receive?
2. What are the chances for ASA getting the 900? If they do,when? What would have to be done in order for them to get the 900?
Some other questions that I have are:
3. Will ASA or Comair come up with a payscale for the 900?
4. Given the current industry downturn, do any of you think that the magnitude of hiring will return in 2009 after the elections?
5. What are a person's chances of being assigned to either the 700 or 900 after being offered to go to training?
6. How does ASA and Comair handle seniority of those who successfully complete IOE .
7. Do you think if hired by Comair, and living in ATL, would the commute to CVG or even JFK be difficult?
I'm preparing for war in time of peace. My heart is set on either of these two. I would like to hear from those who fly for either airline or even if you don't, your input is well received.
Thanks.
atp
Last edited by atpwannabe; 09-27-2008 at 11:50 AM.
09-27-2008, 12:38 PM
#2
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1. Scope can mean anything you want it to mean. It is USUALLY contract language which says that the airline cannot operate any airplanes unless they are flown by pilots on the seniority list. There are often exceptions...most majors allow turboprops and 50-90 seat RJ's to be outsourced.
Scope at a regional is a touchy issue. You usually have scope that prevents management from hiring a seperate group of pilots to fly cheaper than the seniority list. TSA does not have scope, hence gojet. Mesa did not have scope when Freedom A was created.
Scope at a major can protect your job...but it's important to realize that scope at a regional is ultimately useless because your company is a contractor. If you get too expensive, the major partner(s) will fire your company, and you in the process. Almost no regionals have any sort of scope which will protect them from this.
Wholly owneds like COMAIR and Eagle may have something to at least preserve some of their existing flying. I also think ASA has something related to the SKW acquisition and/or their recent pilot contract with SKW Inc.
Bottom line: At a major if you get too expensive, they will still find a way to get rid of you or the contract eventually (Ch.11, etc). At a regional if you get to expensive, they will get rid of you much more quickly.
2. I suspect they will get them eventually...they have essentially the same cost structure as SKW. The training is very minimal for current 700 pilots.
3. They will need to negotiate a payscale before airplane delivery.
4. 2009? No. If oil stays $100 or less the industry will limp along until the economy recovers....2010? 2011? Hiring will be very minimal until 2012 when the age 65 bubble pops (remember NO pilot will be forced to retire for the next 4 years). If oil goes back to $150+, airlines will shrink, and few if any pilots will be hired for years...or decades.
5. Why do you care if you fly a 700/700??? Most (but not all) RJ operators qualify pilots on all three CRJ's. What you fly depends on your seniority and what other pilots want to fly. Usually the 200 goes junior. A few airlines do segregate the CRJ pilots, you might get 700/900 as a new-hire but it would be based on company needs.
6. The same as any other airline....you are junior to those hired before you, and senior to those hired after you.
7. ATL to other DAL hubs can be a tough commute (mainline employees will bump you), but I don't know about CVG/JFK personally.
Scope at a regional is a touchy issue. You usually have scope that prevents management from hiring a seperate group of pilots to fly cheaper than the seniority list. TSA does not have scope, hence gojet. Mesa did not have scope when Freedom A was created.
Scope at a major can protect your job...but it's important to realize that scope at a regional is ultimately useless because your company is a contractor. If you get too expensive, the major partner(s) will fire your company, and you in the process. Almost no regionals have any sort of scope which will protect them from this.
Wholly owneds like COMAIR and Eagle may have something to at least preserve some of their existing flying. I also think ASA has something related to the SKW acquisition and/or their recent pilot contract with SKW Inc.
Bottom line: At a major if you get too expensive, they will still find a way to get rid of you or the contract eventually (Ch.11, etc). At a regional if you get to expensive, they will get rid of you much more quickly.
2. I suspect they will get them eventually...they have essentially the same cost structure as SKW. The training is very minimal for current 700 pilots.
3. They will need to negotiate a payscale before airplane delivery.
4. 2009? No. If oil stays $100 or less the industry will limp along until the economy recovers....2010? 2011? Hiring will be very minimal until 2012 when the age 65 bubble pops (remember NO pilot will be forced to retire for the next 4 years). If oil goes back to $150+, airlines will shrink, and few if any pilots will be hired for years...or decades.
5. Why do you care if you fly a 700/700??? Most (but not all) RJ operators qualify pilots on all three CRJ's. What you fly depends on your seniority and what other pilots want to fly. Usually the 200 goes junior. A few airlines do segregate the CRJ pilots, you might get 700/900 as a new-hire but it would be based on company needs.
6. The same as any other airline....you are junior to those hired before you, and senior to those hired after you.
7. ATL to other DAL hubs can be a tough commute (mainline employees will bump you), but I don't know about CVG/JFK personally.
09-27-2008, 02:20 PM
#3
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Originally Posted by atpwannabe
I searched the forum and was unable to come up with any specifics, so, hence, the questions below. I was wondering if anyone from ASA or Comair would be kind enough to explain equipment scope clauses.
1. What is a scope clause and how does it affect the equipment that ASA/Comair receive?
Scope clause would be in the Delta contract and it basically states that no DCI carrier will fly aircraft with more than 76 seats outfitted in them and it stipulates a maximum number of aircraft flown by DCI carriers.
2. What are the chances for ASA getting the 900? If they do,when? What would have to be done in order for them to get the 900?
I work for Comair, so I cant say much for ASA here other than that I doubt ASA will get any 900's anytime soon as we are at the max limit of 76 seaters in scope.
Some other questions that I have are:
3. Will ASA or Comair come up with a payscale for the 900?
Comair has a separate pay scale for the 900, it is basically the same as the 700 pay, however out of 2011 the 900/700 scale begins to differ IIRC.
4. Given the current industry downturn, do any of you think that the magnitude of hiring will return in 2009 after the elections?
We can only hope so, I dont think anyone knows right now... with the current economic crisis, I think things are going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
5. What are a person's chances of being assigned to either the 700 or 900 after being offered to go to training?
Depends on how senior the 700/900 is... At Comair, the wait was just shy of a year.
6. How does ASA and Comair handle seniority of those who successfully complete IOE .
The same way seniority is handeled in training... your number doesnt change unless someone above you leaves the company.
7. Do you think if hired by Comair, and living in ATL, would the commute to CVG or even JFK be difficult?
Yes, CVG would be much easier IMO. JFK has so many problems with delays, and flights are packed now. I have family in ILM and am listed as a commuter to/from there even though I live in CVG... but going through ATL is hell... I usually take US Air/AWAC through Charlotte... If you commute from ATL, CLT is your best bet to get here if ATL/CVG direct flights fill up.
I'm preparing for war in time of peace. My heart is set on either of these two. I would like to hear from those who fly for either airline or even if you don't, your input is well received.
Thanks.
atp
1. What is a scope clause and how does it affect the equipment that ASA/Comair receive?
Scope clause would be in the Delta contract and it basically states that no DCI carrier will fly aircraft with more than 76 seats outfitted in them and it stipulates a maximum number of aircraft flown by DCI carriers.
2. What are the chances for ASA getting the 900? If they do,when? What would have to be done in order for them to get the 900?
I work for Comair, so I cant say much for ASA here other than that I doubt ASA will get any 900's anytime soon as we are at the max limit of 76 seaters in scope.
Some other questions that I have are:
3. Will ASA or Comair come up with a payscale for the 900?
Comair has a separate pay scale for the 900, it is basically the same as the 700 pay, however out of 2011 the 900/700 scale begins to differ IIRC.
4. Given the current industry downturn, do any of you think that the magnitude of hiring will return in 2009 after the elections?
We can only hope so, I dont think anyone knows right now... with the current economic crisis, I think things are going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
5. What are a person's chances of being assigned to either the 700 or 900 after being offered to go to training?
Depends on how senior the 700/900 is... At Comair, the wait was just shy of a year.
6. How does ASA and Comair handle seniority of those who successfully complete IOE .
The same way seniority is handeled in training... your number doesnt change unless someone above you leaves the company.
7. Do you think if hired by Comair, and living in ATL, would the commute to CVG or even JFK be difficult?
Yes, CVG would be much easier IMO. JFK has so many problems with delays, and flights are packed now. I have family in ILM and am listed as a commuter to/from there even though I live in CVG... but going through ATL is hell... I usually take US Air/AWAC through Charlotte... If you commute from ATL, CLT is your best bet to get here if ATL/CVG direct flights fill up.
I'm preparing for war in time of peace. My heart is set on either of these two. I would like to hear from those who fly for either airline or even if you don't, your input is well received.
Thanks.
atp
09-27-2008, 06:42 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2006
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[QUOTE=rickair7777;469492] & Diver Driver:
Wholly owneds like COMAIR and Eagle may have something to at least preserve some of their existing flying. I also think ASA has something related to the SKW acquisition and/or their recent pilot contract with SKW Inc.
So, with ASA, are they still an autonomous DCI company or are they a part of SKW Inc. and have a "contract/scope" with DAL through SKW Inc?
5. Why do you care if you fly a 700/700??? Most (but not all) RJ operators qualify pilots on all three CRJ's. What you fly depends on your seniority and what other pilots want to fly. Usually the 200 goes junior. A few airlines do segregate the CRJ pilots, you might get 700/900 as a new-hire but it would be based on company needs.
From what I've seen of the pay scale, usually the larger a/c pay more. As far as the 200 usually going junior...if that's the way it is, got no problem with paying my dues to move up in pay and opportunity to fly a larger a/c
6. The same as any other airline....you are junior to those hired before you, and senior to those hired after you.
What I meant was how do they determine who is most senior in your training class? Age? SSN? SSN backwards?
One last question:
I see that DAL has contracts with a number of regionals? Why so many? Is it based on the number of lines/flights that any particular regional is able to fly in and out of that city?
Personally, I see alot of overlap. I see that CMR seems to be serving mostly cities in the NE & Midwest; ASA in the SE and from the Upper to & lower Plain states and SKW handling from the Plain states to the Pacific Coast. My inkling tells me that DAL is cutting the fat...starting with Mesa and when finished will have only two of the three that are mentioned...that being CMR & SKW. CMR serving the eastern half of the nation, while SKW Inc. serves the western half.
atp
Wholly owneds like COMAIR and Eagle may have something to at least preserve some of their existing flying. I also think ASA has something related to the SKW acquisition and/or their recent pilot contract with SKW Inc.
So, with ASA, are they still an autonomous DCI company or are they a part of SKW Inc. and have a "contract/scope" with DAL through SKW Inc?
5. Why do you care if you fly a 700/700??? Most (but not all) RJ operators qualify pilots on all three CRJ's. What you fly depends on your seniority and what other pilots want to fly. Usually the 200 goes junior. A few airlines do segregate the CRJ pilots, you might get 700/900 as a new-hire but it would be based on company needs.
From what I've seen of the pay scale, usually the larger a/c pay more. As far as the 200 usually going junior...if that's the way it is, got no problem with paying my dues to move up in pay and opportunity to fly a larger a/c
6. The same as any other airline....you are junior to those hired before you, and senior to those hired after you.
What I meant was how do they determine who is most senior in your training class? Age? SSN? SSN backwards?
One last question:
I see that DAL has contracts with a number of regionals? Why so many? Is it based on the number of lines/flights that any particular regional is able to fly in and out of that city?
Personally, I see alot of overlap. I see that CMR seems to be serving mostly cities in the NE & Midwest; ASA in the SE and from the Upper to & lower Plain states and SKW handling from the Plain states to the Pacific Coast. My inkling tells me that DAL is cutting the fat...starting with Mesa and when finished will have only two of the three that are mentioned...that being CMR & SKW. CMR serving the eastern half of the nation, while SKW Inc. serves the western half.
atp
Last edited by atpwannabe; 09-27-2008 at 06:49 PM.
09-27-2008, 07:50 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by atpwannabe
So, with ASA, are they still an autonomous DCI company or are they a part of SKW Inc. and have a "contract/scope" with DAL through SKW Inc?
ASA was sold by DAL to SKW. They are now a subcontractor like most regionals, although SKW negotiated better contract guarantees for SKW and ASA as part of the package.
From what I've seen of the pay scale, usually the larger a/c pay more. As far as the 200 usually going junior...if that's the way it is, got no problem with paying my dues to move up in pay and opportunity to fly a larger a/c
700/900 generally pay slightly more...the real benefit is usually QOL, due to longer, and therefore fewer, legs each day.
What I meant was how do they determine who is most senior in your training class? Age? SSN? SSN backwards?
It depends on the airline, DOB and SSN are common methods...in the grand scheme of things your seniority within your class will not matter much in the long run...unless a 5-year furlough happens to cut your class in half
One last question:
I see that DAL has contracts with a number of regionals? Why so many? Is it based on the number of lines/flights that any particular regional is able to fly in and out of that city?
A lot of history here...in the 90's majors started to see their many small commuters/regionals enjoying a lot of success, so they bought them up (ASA, COMAIR) and combined them into large wholly-owned regionals(XJT, AE). The COMAIR strike in 2001 showed them that a large wholly-owned regional has a lot of leverage, so they reversed course, started to sell off wholly-owneds, and seek more regionals to ensure competition. ASA and XJT were sold off, and COMAIR ans AE are on the auction block.
Personally, I see alot of overlap. I see that CMR seems to be serving mostly cities in the NE & Midwest; ASA in the SE and from the Upper to & lower Plain states and SKW handling from the Plain states to the Pacific Coast. My inkling tells me that DAL is cutting the fat...starting with Mesa and when finished will have only two of the three that are mentioned...that being CMR & SKW. CMR serving the eastern half of the nation, while SKW Inc. serves the western half.
It's more complicated than that...ASA is part of SKW, and subject to the same protections. But the current philosophy at DAL appears to be fewer regionals, which will be harder with NWA merger since that will bring in several MORE contract and wholly owned regionals. But I agree, mesa is probably toast whatever else happens.
atp
10-08-2008, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by atpwannabe
got no problem with paying my dues to move up in pay and opportunity to fly a larger a/c
atp
atp
Bigger aircraft that the regional level means fewer planes at the major level...less planes=less jobs.
10-08-2008, 05:19 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by 250 or point 65
Dude, you don't want to fly a larger aircraft...until you get to the majors.
Bigger aircraft that the regional level means fewer planes at the major level...less planes=less jobs.
Bigger aircraft that the regional level means fewer planes at the major level...less planes=less jobs.
My point is that at my age, I would think that I would have a better QOL as a Captain at a regional, as oppose to starting over at the FO position again. Based on a number of post I was reading in the Regional Thread, 1500-2000TT will become commonplace as being competitive at the regional level. If that is true....just what will the majors want?
atp
10-08-2008, 05:38 PM
#9
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They'll want what they always wanted...don't let the hiring in the last year fool you. There are plenty of guys who had to know someone to get an interview at a regional with 1500. 1500 used to be low time. Just cause they aren't hiring guys with wet commercials doesn't mean 1500 isn't reasonable. God forbid anyone should have to fly traffic or flight instruct and get some PIC.
10-08-2008, 06:11 PM
#10
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Oh, I totally agree with you.
I do plan on instructing for at least 3-6 months or longer after I complete my initial training. CFI's @ Ari-Ben are averaging about 90-120 flight hours/month if I'm not mistaken. I shooting for somewhere in the 600ME/700TT to 850ME/1000TT ballpark or there abouts if hiring starts again. It may not be like it was before....but hey...getting the experiecne of interviewing is worth its weight in gold I believe.
The other thing I gotta remember is that those times listed above may not even materialize. I'll just go with the flow.
I'm not in a rush. I've waited 25-30 years for this opportunity. What's an additional 3-6 months of instructing?
atp
I do plan on instructing for at least 3-6 months or longer after I complete my initial training. CFI's @ Ari-Ben are averaging about 90-120 flight hours/month if I'm not mistaken. I shooting for somewhere in the 600ME/700TT to 850ME/1000TT ballpark or there abouts if hiring starts again. It may not be like it was before....but hey...getting the experiecne of interviewing is worth its weight in gold I believe.
The other thing I gotta remember is that those times listed above may not even materialize. I'll just go with the flow.
I'm not in a rush. I've waited 25-30 years for this opportunity. What's an additional 3-6 months of instructing?
atp
