SID Compliance
06-17-2009 | 09:54 PM
#1
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From: MD11 Capt
SID Compliance
I've had this question for a while now, regarding SID restrictions. Flying out of IND on the INDY 2 we have a requirement that says no turns until 2.3D or 1200 ft, WEL. I always thought that was for noise abatement and was a hard and fast rule. Now we get instructions to turn to such and such with takeoff clearance and on first contact with departure. Is the intent to try to trick us and see if we'll turn early? I know it's a vector off the SID and all, but the headings they give us are also on the SID. Anyone who can clarify this would be appreciated. I'd bring it up to standards, but would probably get the inevitable rolling eyes and loud sighs, not to mention 25 different answers and the risk of a no notice checkride...
Thanks! :)
Thanks! :)
06-18-2009 | 09:49 AM
#2
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If you're cleared via the SID, you should comply with the SID.
Is IND tower telling you "Turn immediately"? If not, I'd just be slow with the turn or the readback in order to comply. How long does it take an MD11 to get to 2.3 or 1200ft?
Is IND tower telling you "Turn immediately"? If not, I'd just be slow with the turn or the readback in order to comply. How long does it take an MD11 to get to 2.3 or 1200ft?
06-18-2009 | 11:39 AM
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I've seen this question in this context brought up a few times and IMO it depends on what the SID says and when you are given the heading.
SID 101 - all a SID is is a shorthand for a departure clearance to reduce workload (both the controller's and yours). It's a set of ATC instructions and like other ATC clearances and instructions, can be superseded by new instructions. With that in mind...
In this case for a 23L departure, the SID says:
If it's from the tower on takeoff, I'd say it's the "assigned heading" that you fly after reaching 1200/2.3 D.
OTOH, if you are contacting departure and the controller says, "radar contact. Fly heading XXX°," it's a current instruction that overrides the SID heading.
SID 101 - all a SID is is a shorthand for a departure clearance to reduce workload (both the controller's and yours). It's a set of ATC instructions and like other ATC clearances and instructions, can be superseded by new instructions. With that in mind...
In this case for a 23L departure, the SID says:
Climb on runway heading 227° until I-FVJ 2.3 DME and 1200 feet or above, then fly assigned heading 210°, 227° or 242°
Who is giving you the heading you are talking about? And exactly what are they saying? If it's from the tower on takeoff, I'd say it's the "assigned heading" that you fly after reaching 1200/2.3 D.
OTOH, if you are contacting departure and the controller says, "radar contact. Fly heading XXX°," it's a current instruction that overrides the SID heading.
06-18-2009 | 04:55 PM
#4
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From: MD11 Capt
I've seen this question in this context brought up a few times and IMO it depends on what the SID says and when you are given the heading.
SID 101 - all a SID is is a shorthand for a departure clearance to reduce workload (both the controller's and yours). It's a set of ATC instructions and like other ATC clearances and instructions, can be superseded by new instructions. With that in mind...
In this case for a 23L departure, the SID says:
If it's from the tower on takeoff, I'd say it's the "assigned heading" that you fly after reaching 1200/2.3 D.
OTOH, if you are contacting departure and the controller says, "radar contact. Fly heading XXX°," it's a current instruction that overrides the SID heading.
SID 101 - all a SID is is a shorthand for a departure clearance to reduce workload (both the controller's and yours). It's a set of ATC instructions and like other ATC clearances and instructions, can be superseded by new instructions. With that in mind...
In this case for a 23L departure, the SID says:
Climb on runway heading 227° until I-FVJ 2.3 DME and 1200 feet or above, then fly assigned heading 210°, 227° or 242°
Who is giving you the heading you are talking about? And exactly what are they saying? If it's from the tower on takeoff, I'd say it's the "assigned heading" that you fly after reaching 1200/2.3 D.
OTOH, if you are contacting departure and the controller says, "radar contact. Fly heading XXX°," it's a current instruction that overrides the SID heading.
It's not unheard of for controllers to play "stupid pilot tricks" with us just for laughs. I think the worst culprit is the "taxi to runway" assignment that allows us to cross active runways on the way to the assigned runway, but not to cross the assigned if necessary for taxiing. Like RWY 1 @ ALB. They'll say taxi to RWY 1 when you're already at the approach end of 19 waiting for you to screw up and then come on the radio with a "Simon didn't say you could cross" comment. But it's been a long time since I've been up there, maybe that controller retired?
Cheers!
06-19-2009 | 03:36 AM
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Most of the instructions are based in the AIM, Controller Handbook and P/CG, but that "taxi to" can create some interesting scenarios.
Strangest one I've come across was at APA in Denver. While about a mile or so southeast of the airport, an incoming plane was told to "make right downwind runway 35R. We'll call your base." (sketch it out and see if you can figure out what ATC wanted)
Strangest one I've come across was at APA in Denver. While about a mile or so southeast of the airport, an incoming plane was told to "make right downwind runway 35R. We'll call your base." (sketch it out and see if you can figure out what ATC wanted)
