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-   -   The Good Morale Character For the ATP (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/44340-good-morale-character-atp.html)

rickair7777 09-29-2009 01:04 PM

It is true that single conviction might not disqualify you, but they are likely to drag you through the wringer in the process of making that determination if you have a serious misdemeanor or felony.

Rebuilt 09-29-2009 02:22 PM


Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt (Post 686171)

If you really want to do a survey of cases where the question came up, just go here: NTSB Opinions and Orders

Leave everything the way it is except put the words good moral character in the Words & Phrases box


Interesting information. Thanks for the link.

Lab Rat 09-30-2009 05:14 AM

With regards to legalities, and I'm not a lawyer, it appears as if the term is subjective in nature. i.e., there is no clear-cut, black-and-white definition of what constitutes "good morale character" with regards to the ATP.

AirbusA320 09-30-2009 06:51 AM

I heard Sen. Wellstone's pilot had a felony conviction and he held an ATP.

Thedude 09-30-2009 10:26 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 686144)
Would not hold up today. The FAA would not be allowed to arbitrarily judge "moral character" based on regulatory language from another era. They know this, and will likely only go for the slam-dunk cases...where a criminal court has already made the determination for them, using copious due process.

Perhaps you missed my point. I was commenting on the TSA and pulling tickets. Which is a direct violation of due process.

rickair7777 09-30-2009 11:12 PM


Originally Posted by Thedude (Post 687152)
Perhaps you missed my point. I was commenting on the TSA and pulling tickets. Which is a direct violation of due process.

Ooops, I quoted the wrong post. I was talking about the one before yours.

There are a few national-security situations which override normal due process considerations. The usual circumstance involves the need to keep national intelligence means and sources classified. The defendant and his lawyer are probably not cleared to even know the details of where the info came from, and in most cases could not be trusted.

Of course this should be limited only to those cases in which there are actual classified sources at stake, and not be carte-blanche for government agencies to do whatever they like with no accountability.

In the case of TSA revoking certs with limited appeal, I don't agree with that. There should be an independent review body to at least take a second look, even if you cannot give the defendant all the details.

Ultimately piloting is a privilege, not a right, so our certs do not enjoy the same protections as our life, liberty, etc.

USMCFLYR 09-30-2009 11:23 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 687166)


Ultimately piloting is a privilege, not a right, so our certs do not enjoy the same protections as our life, liberty, etc.

If flying "is my life" and provides me the "pursuit of happiness" then maybe IT IS a right! Hummmmm.......makes one think..........Hummmmm.

USMCFLYR

NoyGonnaDoIt 10-01-2009 03:42 AM


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 687168)
If flying "is my life" and provides me the "pursuit of happiness" then maybe IT IS a right! Hummmmm.......makes one think..........Hummmmm.

USMCFLYR

Even if it's not, "it's a privilege, not a right" is a bit of a platitude. "Due process" also means fair treatment. That something is a governmental license does not mean that there is no due process protection, just somewhat less and based on differing standards.

Besides, "pursuit of happiness" is not a constitutional right. It comes from that anti-government document written by revolutionaries based on the teachings of liberal radicals – the Declaration of Independence. Never made it way into the Constitution.

USMCFLYR 10-01-2009 05:36 AM


Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt (Post 687187)
Even if it's not, "it's a privilege, not a right" is a bit of a platitude. "Due process" also means fair treatment. That something is a governmental license does not mean that there is no due process protection, just somewhat less and based on differing standards.

Besides, "pursuit of happiness" is not a constitutional right. It comes from that anti-government document written by revolutionaries based on the teachings of liberal radicals – the Declaration of Independence. Never made it way into the Constitution.

I think you may have missed the intended **humorous** side of the post. (still can't find those icons on this computer - hmmmm again)

USMCFLYR

NoyGonnaDoIt 10-01-2009 09:59 AM


Originally Posted by USMCFLYR (Post 687224)
I think you may have missed the intended **humorous** side of the post. (still can't find those icons on this computer - hmmmm again)

USMCFLYR

And you think that the reference to "anti-government document written by revolutionaries based on the teachings of liberal radicals" wasn't? (although it is accurate)


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