ATP cross country
12-07-2009, 12:55 PM
#11
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Position: PT Inbound
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by INTERNET PILOT
When I was doing my training, the thing everyone used to say was "make sure you have two landings that are at least 50 NM away". Basically you take all the points at which you landed. If you can drawl a line between any two points and have it be more than 50 NM, then it counts as 50 NM cross country. For ATP XC its the same, except you use any point that you fly over instead of any point where you landed.
When I was doing my training there was a common route private students would do where they'd fly north 30 miles to airport A, do a touch and go, fly south 50 miles to airport B, do a touch and go, then return home 30 miles north. The idea was when you landed at Airport A, it became the new "departure" airport.
Now lets say you went 30 miles to airport A, spent the night, then flew 50 miles to airport B, would that qualify? How is that any different between flying 30 miles to Airport A but just doing a touch and go before heading off to airport B? Where is the line drawn between an airport being the new "departure point" and an "enroute point"? Has the FAA ever defined these terms?
When I was doing my training there was a common route private students would do where they'd fly north 30 miles to airport A, do a touch and go, fly south 50 miles to airport B, do a touch and go, then return home 30 miles north. The idea was when you landed at Airport A, it became the new "departure" airport.
Now lets say you went 30 miles to airport A, spent the night, then flew 50 miles to airport B, would that qualify? How is that any different between flying 30 miles to Airport A but just doing a touch and go before heading off to airport B? Where is the line drawn between an airport being the new "departure point" and an "enroute point"? Has the FAA ever defined these terms?
In my head, this would show that the purpose of the >50NM rule was met, to fly something long enough to give the solo student a chance to get lost :)
12-07-2009, 04:38 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by INTERNET PILOT
When I was doing my training there was a common route private students would do where they'd fly north 30 miles to airport A, do a touch and go, fly south 50 miles to airport B, do a touch and go, then return home 30 miles north. The idea was when you landed at Airport A, it became the new "departure" airport.
Now lets say you went 30 miles to airport A, spent the night, then flew 50 miles to airport B, would that qualify? How is that any different between flying 30 miles to Airport A but just doing a touch and go before heading off to airport B? Where is the line drawn between an airport being the new "departure point" and an "enroute point"? Has the FAA ever defined these terms?
But I think you could still get into trouble on one point...
You are not being consistent in your application of your own rule. The first T&G reset the departure point...OK, fine, but why did the second T&G not also reset the departure point? That would make the last leg 30NM, and not a XC.
My guess would be that if you actually stop for some period of time, you could call that your new departure point. How long?
I think a T&G is too short. A lunch or dinner stop might count, and an overnight would surely count I think. It would be up to the FSDO which violates you I guess...
12-07-2009, 05:31 PM
#13
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Posts: 826
Just for an assist - FAA Legal very recently weighed in on repositioning flights (among other cross country issues) in
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...is%20Glenn.pdf
There are two others in the recent group that deal with cross country logging but not repositoning:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...9/Hilliard.pdf
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...an%20Zanen.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...is%20Glenn.pdf
There are two others in the recent group that deal with cross country logging but not repositoning:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...9/Hilliard.pdf
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...an%20Zanen.pdf
12-18-2009, 09:05 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt
Just for an assist - FAA Legal very recently weighed in on repositioning flights (among other cross country issues) in
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...is%20Glenn.pdf
There are two others in the recent group that deal with cross country logging but not repositoning:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...9/Hilliard.pdf
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...an%20Zanen.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...is%20Glenn.pdf
There are two others in the recent group that deal with cross country logging but not repositoning:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...9/Hilliard.pdf
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...an%20Zanen.pdf
The way it's written now, a flight from A-B-C does not count as XC, but a flight from B-C-A does. It's the same darn flight, just in a different leg order! I don't think the FAA intended the wording to imply that first leg is somehow special in that it has to be the one thats more than 50 NM, but thats what ends up happening.
12-18-2009, 03:17 PM
#15
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Posts: 826
Originally Posted by asdf
I don't think the FAA intended the wording to imply that first leg is somehow special in that it has to be the one thats more than 50 NM, but thats what ends up happening.
AAA -30NM-> BBB -30NM-> AAA
so long as the distance between AAA and CCC is >50NM
I wold' be surprised if that type of student solo cross country is pretty common in some places. Checking back out of curiosity, the first leg of one of my solo cross countries was 44NM - 42NM - 61NM.
12-18-2009, 10:28 PM
#16
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Posts: 50
The way I read the letter, was that if the route was:
A-B-C
A-B = 30 nm
B-C = +50 nm
C-A = 30 nm
Then you can either log it "A-B" with no cross country and "B-C-A" with cross country, or you can log it as "A-B-C-A" with no cross country because none of the points along the route are 50 miles away from "your original point of departure" (if that were the case).
As far as I can tell by that letter, the FAA is defining "original point of departure" to mean "the first airport listed in the route"
A-B-C
A-B = 30 nm
B-C = +50 nm
C-A = 30 nm
Then you can either log it "A-B" with no cross country and "B-C-A" with cross country, or you can log it as "A-B-C-A" with no cross country because none of the points along the route are 50 miles away from "your original point of departure" (if that were the case).
As far as I can tell by that letter, the FAA is defining "original point of departure" to mean "the first airport listed in the route"
12-19-2009, 05:24 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 826
Originally Posted by asdf
The way I read the letter, was that if the route was:
A-B-C
A-B = 30 nm
B-C = +50 nm
C-A = 30 nm
Then you can either log it "A-B" with no cross country and "B-C-A" with cross country, or you can log it as "A-B-C-A" with no cross country because none of the points along the route are 50 miles away from "your original point of departure" (if that were the case).
As far as I can tell by that letter, the FAA is defining "original point of departure" to mean "the first airport listed in the route"
A-B-C
A-B = 30 nm
B-C = +50 nm
C-A = 30 nm
Then you can either log it "A-B" with no cross country and "B-C-A" with cross country, or you can log it as "A-B-C-A" with no cross country because none of the points along the route are 50 miles away from "your original point of departure" (if that were the case).
As far as I can tell by that letter, the FAA is defining "original point of departure" to mean "the first airport listed in the route"
I know a couple of people aren't too thrilled with the letter since it theoretically allows a cross country to take place in a very small area:
A-B heading 360° 26NM
B-C heading 180° 51 NM
C-A Heading 360° 25 NM
counting A-B as the repositioning flight and counting B-C-A as the cross country.
Personally, I don't think this letter is the last we'll hear on the issue, although it may not get "abused" as much as some folks think it will.
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