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There doesn't seem to be a relevant chief counsel's opinion on the FAA website. Considering the following though, I think I will continue to clarify that I have received a "clearance" into/through Class B, prior to entry, anytime I'm VFR (or shortly expected to be) unless I hear something to the effect of "cleared into Bravo". Controllers often voluntarily say this prior to being asked, so that must mean something. A heading and altitude assignment alone do not seem to make a "clearance".
From the AIM: 4-4-3 Clearance Items ATC clearances normally contain the following: a. Clearance Limit. The traffic clearance issued prior to departure will normally authorize flight to the airport of intended landing. Under certain conditions at some locations...a clearance is issued to a fix within or just outside of the terminal area... b. Departure Procedure.... c. Route of Flight.... d. Altitude Data.... e. Holding Instructions.... AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE. An authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace....Pilots may also request clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is not fully understood...THE PILOT IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation... ATC INSTRUCTIONS. Directives issued by air traffic control for the purpose of requiring a pilot to take specific actions; e.g., "Turn left heading two five zero,"... |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 704260)
If you asked for flight following, they can give you vectors. If you don't like the vectors you can drop flight following and do your own thing. But anytime ATC tells you to do something you risk 91.13 if you disregard them without good reason.
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Originally Posted by bubi352
(Post 703651)
Keep in mind that you DO NOT need to hear the words "Clear into class B". No where in the regs/AIM does it say you need to hear those words to enter the airspace. If you receive a heading/altitude assignment, this is your clearance into class B. Too often I keep hearing on the radio "Am I clear into class B???" when they clearly received one in the first place.
Originally Posted by JO7110.65S
7-9-2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace. REFERENCE FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-18, Operational Requests. FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-22, Airspace Classes. PHRASEOLOGY CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE, and as appropriate, VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO AIRSPACE. or CLEARED AS REQUESTED. (Additional instructions, as necessary.) REMAIN OUTSIDE BRAVO AIRSPACE. (When necessary, reason and/or additional instructions.) NOTE- 1. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance with VFR is expected to advise ATC if compliance will cause violation of any part of the CFR. 2. Separation and sequencing for VFR aircraft is dependent upon radar. Efforts should be made to segregate VFR traffic from IFR traffic flows when a radar outage occurs. b. Approve/deny requests from VFR aircraft to operate in Class B airspace based on workload, operational limitations and traffic conditions. c. Inform the pilot when to expect further clearance when VFR aircraft are held either inside or outside Class B airspace. d. Inform VFR aircraft when leaving Class B airspace. PHRASEOLOGY LEAVING (name) BRAVO AIRSPACE, and as appropriate, RESUME OWN NAVIGATION, REMAIN THIS FREQUENCY FOR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES, RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO ZERO. |
ATC will tell you whats up when you cancel, if you are IFR and cancel and they want you gone they will probably vector you out. VFR, Mcartier is right suggested heading is not a vector; a suggested heading that flys you toward the bravo should be confirmed, since when did confirming anything w/ATC get you in trouble? Ill confirm it three times on the way there if I am still not sure, I dont care, Im PIC and I need to know.
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I've got a question for you guys.
When you cancel IFR, doesn't ATC say something like "... radar services terminated, squawk VFR"? If you're in the middle of class-B when you cancel they aren't going to say that. It seems to me in this situation the ball is in ATC's court - they have to give you some instructions. Either squawk (bla bla bla) and maintain your current heading, or get your little 172 out. In the last case, pretty much all you'd have to do is descend a little bit and you're good to go. |
Originally Posted by mcartier713
(Post 704438)
I'm pretty sure Flight Following doesn't grant them authority to give Vectors. Unless you've Ident'd and gotten the aforementioned clearance. I've known them to give "suggested headings" under FF, which are not vectors at all, but exactly that..., suggested.
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Originally Posted by peteq
(Post 704899)
I've got a question for you guys.
When you cancel IFR, doesn't ATC say something like "... radar services terminated, squawk VFR"? If you're in the middle of class-B when you cancel they aren't going to say that. It seems to me in this situation the ball is in ATC's court - they have to give you some instructions. Either squawk (bla bla bla) and maintain your current heading, or get your little 172 out. In the last case, pretty much all you'd have to do is descend a little bit and you're good to go. |
In this case, I departed SMO on a climb to VFR-on-top clearance, with intent to cancel IFR and transition LAX via the SFRA. Controller didn't seem unhappy at all with my request; in fact after contacting a new controller to request FF after transitioning the SFRA, the new controller already had my information/destination, so the original controller had coordinated me with him. Maybe he was just in a really, really good mood?
I fly in SOCAL airspace under FF all the time, and I frequently get assigned vectors that do not contain the word "suggest." |
Originally Posted by SomedayRJ
(Post 705069)
...or don't cancel IFR in Class B, since all the big airplane drivers are also IFR, and having all the airplanes following the same rules tends to have a good effect on the controller's blood pressure.
If you're walking with big bags of cash, you don't fire your bodyguard halfway through Central Park. Anyway, the point of the original post was, do IFR vectors that just so happen to carry you through class-B imply class-B clearance. |
Originally Posted by peteq
(Post 705119)
Or, wait 3-5 minutes, clear class-B and cancel in class-E.
If you're walking with big bags of cash, you don't fire your bodyguard halfway through Central Park. Anyway, the point of the original post was, do IFR vectors that just so happen to carry you through class-B imply class-B clearance. |
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