APCuser

Looking for help to remove all doubt on a couple of FAR questions:

I'm a military pilot getting ready to transition to the unfamiliar world of civilian flying. Here goes:

1. Reporting SIC time on an airline application. As far as I can tell from the FARs, SIC time can only be logged in an aircraft which requires 2 pilots. My doubt comes from the phrase "or operations requiring 2 pilots" which I came across somewhere. So, can military flights in a 2-stick fighter or trainer be counted as SIC when you did not sign for the aircraft as the PIC? I conservatively assumed not, but I'd hate to learn that I shorted myself a few hundred SIC hours on an application.

2. ATP certificate. I got mine (AMEL) about 10 years ago but have never actually "used" it. My understanding has always been that a) it never expires and b) that's all I would ever need for any type of (AMEL) flying job in the civilian after-life. In other words, I thought the ATP lets you exercise the privileges of any "lesser" certificate. Is this true? If so, why does FedEx list Commercial pilot certificate with instrument rating and ATP as a required qualification?

NoyGonnaDoIt

You mean somewhere like the FAA regulation om how to log time?

SIC time can be logged when you are acting as the SIC and "more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted."

Keeping away from the usual safety pilot fight, there are situations in which the "regulations under which the flight is being conducted" requires more than one pilot. The one that jumps to mind the quickest is the Part 135 IFR operation with passengers (at least when there is no autopilot) - see 135.101 and 105.

But your question is what to report on an airline application. And only the airline application instructions can answer that questions with any certainty since employer flight time requirements can differ significantly from the FAA's.

In terms of your fighter trainer, I don't know, Does the type of flight, other than the fact that it's training, require more than one pilot? Yes, training flights require two people since without at least two, where's the training? But the reg is talking about required crew (which meet certain qualifications) and a training flight only requires one qualified pilot - the instructor.

[/quote]A pilot certificate never expires. And it lets you exercise the privileges of any lesser certificate. And in includes an instrument rating.

Why an employer is looking for ATP+instrument rating is a good question. It's like requiring "pants with legs." Unless, of course, some other countries issues ATPs without instrument ratings.

thurberm

I'm a recently-retired military pilot myself. Like you, I got my ATP over 10 years ago when I was considering getting out the first time. Joined Air Inc., bought the books, the t-shirt, etc. Starting the process again now that I've retired. Here's what I've learned and what I'm doing WRT your questions. Pretty sure it's what the industry in general is looking for. Anyone out there who knows better, please chime in.

Calculating time from your military records: In military heavy aircraft, primary time = PIC, secondary time = SIC. You might have 3 or 4 aircraft commander qualified guys on a flight, but only one can be the AC on the orders, so PIC in the civilian world does not directly correlate to aircraft commander in the military world.

In a fighter aircraft, you are logging PIC all the time. If you're in the pit of a family model, I simply don't know. Haven't found anything that addresses that. In my opinion, if both pilots are fully qualified, then it would be conservative to NOT count it towards civil PIC or SIC since two pilots aren't required. If the other pilot is unqualified or upgrading, then count it as PIC and instructor without a second thought. Same thing in a military trainer-type aircraft.

ALWAYS be conservative when converting your military time to civilian time. You do NOT want to ever give the impression that you're padding your flying time. I don't even add .3 to any of my times on my resume, just to be safe (I DO put a note there to state that no military-to-civilian coversion is used, though). Same thing when I fill out online apps. Some airlines let you add the .3, some don't like it, some don't care. If they wanna know, they can do the quick math and see how I compare, and I can use the same numbers all the time to make life easier.

Also, most military pilots don't keep a logbook like civilian pilots have to. Be aware that your military flying records aren't going to match up with what you put on a resume. "Other" time means nothing to civilian operators. If you're like me, and have time in many different aircraft, it can get confusing to a company trying to figure out your military time. I just made a spreadsheet. I input all my PIC, SIC, instructor, night, instrument, simulator, and cross-country time (which I have to estimate) from the data for each MDS I've flown, then tally all that up for the totals that are on my resume. Those numbers match exactly. That way, I have something I can give an interviewer ALONG with my military records that shows them how I came up with my numbers.

The ATP thing: Having an ATP does allow you to exercise the priveleges of all lesser certificates and it never expires. The ATP by definition includes an instrument rating. No idea why the FedEx requirement is written the way it is.

NOTE: Make sure that you go to the FAA Airmen Services website https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/amsrvs/Logon.asp and update your address and contact data. FARs require it within 30 days of a change. Also, the FAA changed from the old paper certificates to a new plastic one, and has stopped using your SSN as the certificate number. Many employers will ask for a copy of your certificate somewhere in the employment process--showing them an old paper one vs. a shiny new plastic one only hightlights you as someone who is behind the power curve... You can get the new one on that website too.

Hope that helps, and good luck.

Twin Wasp

What were you doing in that second seat? Many airlines specifically say no RIO WSO etc time. Were you just sort of riding along (Cool, can I come?) Probably doesn't count. If it was AF/Navy/Whoever policy that these flights in this aircraft require a second pilot I'd say log it. If you're being trained it's dual received.

Hacker15e

Unless you are the IP or EP, I can't think of a single instance that time spent in the back seat of a military fighter or trainer would toward FAA SIC pilot time.

None of them require two pilots by tech order.

APCuser

Very much appreciate the responses. Continuing on....

1. SIC time. I think I will just stick with my initial/conservative decision not to include all the flying time for which I did not sign for the aircraft. I have a healthy chunk of PIC time, and FedEx is clear on what they want for that.

FWIW though, somebody had asked "what you were doing?" The answer is all kinds of different stuff....sometimes training, sometimes just getting currency hours, sometimes getting the aircraft and 2 pilots from Pt A to Pt B for a follow-on mission, sometimes just getting the professional experience of flying different aircraft.
Note also that the PIC does not necessarily sit in the front cockpit, and that USN/USMC pilots log "First Pilot" or "Co-Pilot" time, FP time being time at the controls, regardless of who signed for the aircraft (PIC) --> so, SIC time cannot be equated to nor derived from one's CP time totals.
(Reminder, the basic scenario for the discussion is a 2-seater fighter variant or lead-in trainer, jets that don't "require" a second pilot)

2. ATP. Loved the comment "its like requiring pants with legs"!!! But that's exactly my point, and the root of my question.
Pasted below is what FedEx lists as the requirement for applicants:

-------
Qualifications
* Commercial Pilot Certificate with Multi-engine and Instrument rating (without limitations)
* Current ATP Certificate
* Current FE Turbojet Rating or written (FEX or Basic/turbojet)
* Must pass FAA mandated drug screen
* Recency and type of experience is considered
* Meet requirements for and currently hold First Class Medical certification
* Bachelor's Degree from an accredited college or university
* Eligibility for rapid visa issuance, issued by offices in the United States to fly to any FedEx destination.
* This position requires clearance from United States Postal Service including a FBI fingerprint check.
* Candidates for jobs involving handling or access to U.S. mail cannot be considered for employment if they have resided outside the U.S., Guam or Puerto Rico for more than (6) six months during the last (5) years prior to today's date, other than the following verifiable exceptions: active duty in the U.S. Uniformed Service; trailing spouse or dependent of someone working for the U.S. government (military or civilian); missionary; student attending school in a foreign country; Peace Corps participant; employee of a U.S. based employer/company or other extraordinary circumstances.
* Eligibility for issuance of US Security Clearance
* 1500 hours total fixed-wing time as pilot-in-command (PIC) or second-in-command in multi-engine turbo-prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof, including a minimum of 1000 hours total fixed-wing pilot-in-command in multi-engine turbo prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof. Note: PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. Note: FedEx considers only pilot time in fixed wing aircraft toward minimum qualifications. This does not include simulator, helicopter, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, RIO, EWO, WSO, NFO, or Special Crew.
* All certificates and ratings required to be U.S.A. FAA issued
------

So, to me it is still unclear as to why they would have BOTH those first 2 bullets.
I don't think one can say an "or" is implied. My only other guess is that this wording allows for some other flavor of ATP (not AMEL) so long as you also have the CPL ME/Inst.

Note, in the electronic Profile (= pre-application) they allow you to put a check, or not, by both ATP and/or CPL ME/Inst. I only checked the ATP box. Am I shooting myself in the foot by not checking CPL ME/Inst, since although I don't have a certificate that says that specifically, I do have the ATP which allows me the same privileges? Again, don't want to claim I have something that I don't have.

Would appreciate any more thoughts on this puzzler. I gotta be missing something!

USMCFLYR

I flew quite often with another fully qualified instructor pilot. If I signed for the aircraft then I was PIC; if not it was only total time, co-pilot, and conditions of flight.

I didn't apply to any airlines but I do know that most have guidance on what they want to see as far as comparisons. My advice to those filling out certain airline applications would be to follow their requirements TO THE LETTER.

I think this is very important. I even had a small side-sheet basically that explained how I calculated each of my times. For instance - when I first started calculating my x/c time I was using the more conservative commercial pilot definition (50nm+ with landing). I have listened to many of my peers talking about how they completed the applications and all have said that the recruiters / interviewers have a really good idea of where each communities times usually fall and unless there is a huge red flag (like unusually low or high times) and the qualifications that they would expect a person with a certain level of experience would have, then the logbook review is almost a non-event.

USMCFLYR

NoyGonnaDoIt

Your guesses are as good as anyone's - unless someone here has already gone through the process. Is there someone you can call a FedEx to ask?

thurberm

Concur, if you know their preferences. I've been filing apps for several months now, and have yet to see one that says which way they want you to go. The only one I've seen so far that comes close to addressing it is Southwest, and they just have a yes/no checkbox asking if you added .3 to all the times you entered or not.

USMCFLYR

I don't think the search box is quite good enough on APC and can be hard to use, but if you give it a shot (or if a computer warrior reading this can help), there was a post some time ago that laid out quite a few of the legacies and cargo airlines preferences for conversion.

I have also heard in the past many of my peers, and those on this board, advocate that you should only use the conversion factors IF you need them in order to make any of the required hour goals.

USMCFLYR