FAA bill and single pilot ops
06-03-2018, 08:08 AM
#42
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Joined APC: Feb 2018
Position: B-737 Captain
Posts: 649
Originally Posted by FlyingMaryJane
Enough of the politics... it doesnt matter who is in congress! There are very wealthy powerful people that have sat above government for 50+ years lobbying, funding, and controlling BOTH political parties. This would have been put in the democrat bill last minute also if they were in power of the House and Senate. Most Reps and Senators arent aware of things in bills anyway. Mega corporations like Boeing, Airbus, airline managements, VC companies wanting to get in on that next A.I. project to replace pilots control both parties and it would get in any bill, it doesnt matter who is in control. This has been going on for 50+ years and almost everybody knows this... please don't be so naive and believe republicans and democrats are different. The 2 party system is a scam designed for people like you believe in a certain party, when the elites continue to win every time no matter who is in power of the congress! Noticed how I say " power" and not "control"
06-03-2018, 08:10 AM
#43
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Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 249
Originally Posted by Zenofzin
I’m praying the democrats get back in charge again, imagine the negotiating leverage we will have with higher corporate taxes, stagnant economic growth and higher unemployment, just like the good old days with King obama....go Bernie 
06-03-2018, 11:14 AM
#44
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Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Posts: 1,182
Originally Posted by Grumble
We’re not taking about shifting responsibility, you’re taking about removing the human desicion making. This isn’t about replacing a nav with a GPS. When GPS fails the nav responsibilities shift back to the pilots (which you’re advocating the removal of).
The last time in 20 years I had a total GPS failure.....never. But if I had, one pilot on the flight deck would have been sufficient to handle it...thanks to automation and redundancy (3) IRU's
We may wish to maintain the status quo, but our wishes will be overcome by technology and market forces...Just ask old Frontier pilots, or former UAL 737 second officers.
Last edited by BMEP100; 06-03-2018 at 11:54 AM.
06-03-2018, 12:15 PM
#45
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Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Posts: 1,182
A little history
Here's a little history on the crew complement issue, from a disinterested source
The 737 made its maiden flight in April 1967 and over the Thanksgiving holiday week of that year, the FAA decided to run a series of tests to put the crew number issue to rest. One of the 737s was borrowed from Boeing and two-crew operations would be tested in the busy Boston-New York-Washington corridor. One pilot was from Boeing, the other pilot from the FAA. Two round-trips were made each day that week in both day and night conditions, both VFR and IFR weather conditions, as well as operations below minimum landing conditions, diversion operations, simulated instrument failures and even simulated crew incapacitation (could one pilot fly the 737 to safety). As a result of these tests, the FAA issued the following statement:
"The far-reaching evaluation of the Boeing 737 was started in September 1965, with the evaluation of the cockpit mock-up. Continuous evaluations over the past two years included regular operations of the aircraft in a high-density air traffic environment to determine workload, complexity, and safety of operations in a fail-safe concept. These flights were part of a very extensive flight-testing programme accomplished by the FAA and Boeing personnel. The technical findings coming out of these evaluations are that the aircraft can be safely flown with a minimum of two pilots."
Certification by the FAA of both the 737-100 and 737-200 followed in December 1967 for full airline operations.
The 737 made its maiden flight in April 1967 and over the Thanksgiving holiday week of that year, the FAA decided to run a series of tests to put the crew number issue to rest. One of the 737s was borrowed from Boeing and two-crew operations would be tested in the busy Boston-New York-Washington corridor. One pilot was from Boeing, the other pilot from the FAA. Two round-trips were made each day that week in both day and night conditions, both VFR and IFR weather conditions, as well as operations below minimum landing conditions, diversion operations, simulated instrument failures and even simulated crew incapacitation (could one pilot fly the 737 to safety). As a result of these tests, the FAA issued the following statement:
"The far-reaching evaluation of the Boeing 737 was started in September 1965, with the evaluation of the cockpit mock-up. Continuous evaluations over the past two years included regular operations of the aircraft in a high-density air traffic environment to determine workload, complexity, and safety of operations in a fail-safe concept. These flights were part of a very extensive flight-testing programme accomplished by the FAA and Boeing personnel. The technical findings coming out of these evaluations are that the aircraft can be safely flown with a minimum of two pilots."
Certification by the FAA of both the 737-100 and 737-200 followed in December 1967 for full airline operations.
06-03-2018, 04:27 PM
#46
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Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,193
Originally Posted by XHooker
Not to put words in Grumble's mouth, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to drones, not manned aircraft. The benefits of single pilot transport airplanes are pretty minimal balanced against the risks. I'd guess less than a five percent cost benefit for a pretty big degradation in safety. When the AF decides to design a single pilot transport, we can get nervous, but nipping this legislative stupidity in the bud is still important.
Easy with it Biff
Originally Posted by BMEP100
Yes, we ARE talking about shifting responsibilities, exactly. From two pilots to one. That airlines have gone from 3 pilots and a flight engineer on a domestic 707 in 1960, to 2 pilots on a Europe to NY in. 747. All due to automation advances.
The last time in 20 years I had a total GPS failure.....never. But if I had, one pilot on the flight deck would have been sufficient to handle it...thanks to automation and redundancy (3) IRU's
We may wish to maintain the status quo, but our wishes will be overcome by technology and market forces...Just ask old Frontier pilots, or former UAL 737 second officers.
The last time in 20 years I had a total GPS failure.....never. But if I had, one pilot on the flight deck would have been sufficient to handle it...thanks to automation and redundancy (3) IRU's
We may wish to maintain the status quo, but our wishes will be overcome by technology and market forces...Just ask old Frontier pilots, or former UAL 737 second officers.
You must not do much west coast flying either because the guys from White Sands/Nellis/Fallon are jamming that crap all the time. It’s incredibly easy to do, and is becoming a more and more prevalent threat around the world.
06-03-2018, 04:45 PM
#47
Banned
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Posts: 1,182
Originally Posted by Grumble
Nailed it.
Easy with it Biff
Did you just selectively opt to ignore the second half of my argument against a single pilot cockpit? If you’re advocating completely autonomous single pilot ops, well then that age 65 retirement needs to be more like 55.
You must not do much west coast flying either because the guys from White Sands/Nellis/Fallon are jamming that crap all the time. It’s incredibly easy to do, and is becoming a more and more prevalent threat around the world.
Easy with it Biff
Did you just selectively opt to ignore the second half of my argument against a single pilot cockpit? If you’re advocating completely autonomous single pilot ops, well then that age 65 retirement needs to be more like 55.
You must not do much west coast flying either because the guys from White Sands/Nellis/Fallon are jamming that crap all the time. It’s incredibly easy to do, and is becoming a more and more prevalent threat around the world.
Yes, I did.
I'm not advocating for anything...other than keeping my head out of the sand. Try it.
06-03-2018, 05:01 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 463
Originally Posted by FlyingMaryJane
Enough of the politics... it doesnt matter who is in congress! There are very wealthy powerful people that have sat above government for 50+ years lobbying, funding, and controlling BOTH political parties. This would have been put in the democrat bill last minute also if they were in power of the House and Senate. Most Reps and Senators arent aware of things in bills anyway. Mega corporations like Boeing, Airbus, airline managements, VC companies wanting to get in on that next A.I. project to replace pilots control both parties and it would get in any bill, it doesnt matter who is in control. This has been going on for 50+ years and almost everybody knows this... please don't be so naive and believe republicans and democrats are different. The 2 party system is a scam designed for people like you believe in a certain party, when the elites continue to win every time no matter who is in power of the congress! Noticed how I say " power" and not "control"
06-03-2018, 05:02 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 463
Originally Posted by BMEP100
This is gonna happen. It's just a matter of how soon.
The technology has existed for years to automate and remote takeoff to landing with NO pilot on board. Having one Captain on the deck watching every thing is a no brainer.
Most of you are too young to remember the fight over the loss of the flight engineer and before that, navigators.
When the Air Force got INS, the navigators clung on for a few years for air drop missions. Most of the time they slept or did busy work.
Cabin service will be automated as well.
The technology has existed for years to automate and remote takeoff to landing with NO pilot on board. Having one Captain on the deck watching every thing is a no brainer.
Most of you are too young to remember the fight over the loss of the flight engineer and before that, navigators.
When the Air Force got INS, the navigators clung on for a few years for air drop missions. Most of the time they slept or did busy work.
Cabin service will be automated as well.
06-03-2018, 07:47 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,193
Originally Posted by BMEP100
Yes, I did.
I'm not advocating for anything...other than keeping my head out of the sand. Try it.
I'm not advocating for anything...other than keeping my head out of the sand. Try it.
Find me a lawyer and an insurance carrier willing to carry the risk, and only then will you even begin to call it feasible.
Originally Posted by C130driver
Thank you! Neither party cares about pilots, let’s be honest. You also bring up a great point that some of it is honest ignorance. Not many aviation experts in congress. Want change? Ensure ALPA lobbies congress for what is right.
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