For what it’s worth:
Here is an example where you might be able to avoid answering "yes" to a check ride failure question and still keep a clean conscience. On the question of check ride failures, I had originally answered "yes" on my applications because I had failed my multiengine stage-check rating at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University (ERAU) early in my aviation career. I just assumed that counted as a check ride failure. Then I attended a job fair a few months later and sat in on a presentation given by the director of pilot hiring from HR at an airline that I was targeting. He asked if anyone had any questions about the application, so I asked if my stage-check failure constituted a check ride failure. His answer surprised me. He said that ERAU is a Part 141 school; therefore, as long as I did not receive a “pink slip” (FAA paperwork documenting a check ride failure), I did not need to answer "yes" on the check ride failure question on the application. |
Originally Posted by TiredSoul
(Post 2747294)
The long simmering concern with 141 has always been the lack of strict accountability for checkride performance, ie with enough and time and money you could keep trying for a while until you slipped through. There would be little formal indication that you struggled. There was talk of holding 141 rides to the same accounting standard as 61/135/121 (ie pink slips), but I don't know if that ever got off the ground. The 141 industry may have fought it off... they always marketed their product as insurance against checkride failures. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2747352)
Some people agree with this, some don't, so it can be risky unless you got it directly from the airline in question. There are no laws about how the airlines treat something like this... they can hold it against you if the find out.
The long simmering concern with 141 has always been the lack of strict accountability for checkride performance, ie with enough and time and money you could keep trying for a while until you slipped through. There would be little formal indication that you struggled. There was talk of holding 141 rides to the same accounting standard as 61/135/121 (ie pink slips), but I don't know if that ever got off the ground. The 141 industry may have fought it off... they always marketed their product as insurance against checkride failures. |
Originally Posted by ECAMMemo
(Post 2747372)
I haven’t even thought about whether I should or should not include it on my applications. I have worked way too hard to accomplish my dream to get kicked out of an interview for lying. I unsat a stage check, I learned a very valuable lesson and came out a better pilot because of it. From what I gather, having this one “failure” shouldn’t be a big deal and I’ll just list it and if they ask about it, I’ll explain
Sometimes if the school does not have examining authority, a CP will do an internal EOC which is documented as such but does not result in a cert. Then an outside DPE (or fed) will do the actual checkride for the certificate. In that case the internal EOC is just checkride prep IMO. You don't have to subject yourself to double jeopardy like that. |
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 2746938)
I don't think it's fair game at all.
The philosophy of busting is somewhat old school in that for the last decade or so, the FAA has pushed the approach of recognizing an error and correcting it; if one can recognize and correct, that's far more important than trying to bust someone for a two-knot excursion. The point of doing this is to recognize the real world and the need to be constantly correcting. We fly an approach not perfectly but by bracketing the glideslope and localizer up and down, left and right, constantly making small corrections back to where we want to be. The check airman is there to see that you can fly the airplane. It's not a lottery, and it's not a fault finding mission. It's a flight. Two knots? My question would be did you recognize it and correct? Far more important than a two knot excursion. As an evaluator, I’d look at the manner the procedure was handled, was there any doubt of a safe and successful completion of the task and maintaining aircraft control. If so, pass with debrief. GF |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 2747542)
Should I ground the plane 4,000 nautical from any maintenance for an inspection?
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Busted for an "overspeed event" - yet I can almost guarantee nothing was written up nor was inspected by maintenance... :rolleyes:
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We've got a limit speed on the drop doors for retardant. I can't count the number of times I've been through that speed on a steep downhill run. It's rough. Visibility is low. Winds are high. Turbulence is severe. There are rocks everywhere, most of them hidden in smoke. There's another airplane ahead of me, close, sometimes I can see him. it's not going to get any better. I'm in position. I don't want to come back down here and do this again with this load. I dont' want to carry this load back out. I'm pressing the trigger.
There's nothing to write up. There's no inspection for it, either. I probably went through the flap speed somewhere in there, too. Someone said "load and return." By the time I'm back with the next load, I don't remember a thing. Focus. Move on. Live. There's getting wrapped around the axle of minutia, and an academic case study of what one supposes might happen in the real world, and then there's been there and done that, and the two are not parallel paths. Two god damn knots? Good god. Seriously. |
I guarantee 109 knots was derived from a lot of vendor specs on the actuator, the doors and some assumptions on conditions, run thru a computer or interpolated on a slide rule (not much new engineering on light airplanes) and the answer was 109.157 knots, so they rounded down.
Digital information might look very accurate but there are still lots of leeway in background. Not recommending blowing off the limitations, just asking for common sense in the craft of operating the plane. Yes, lots of areas like performance and TERPS have little margins for getting fast and loose. GF |
Everything important in aviation pretty much has a 150% structural margin to failure, so the system is designed to accommodate very slight exceedences due to turbulence, etc. There are margins on the margins.
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