5 Checkride Failures, regionals?
 

Good morning,

I am current CFI building time towards my ATP. I wanted to reach out to see what everyone’s thoughts are on getting hired at a regional airline with 5 checkride failures?

I am 21 years old, I went to ATP Flight School, while having a baby on the way, driving for Uber at night saving for the baby on the way. If I could do it all over again, I would’ve been more focused on flight school and not so distracted.

My first was my Private Pilot Checkride. The first maneuvers we did were landings, I landed a little “too firm” on my short field landing twice and failed, I was under the impression from my instructor that it should be a firm landing. The examiner did not allow me to complete the rest of the Checkride and I had to go back to our home airport. This is the only checkride I mostly disagree with, and the examiner was the owner of the flight school.

My second was the instrument rating, I had 3 weeks since the last time I had flown and was pretty rough. I failed only on the partial panel RNAV approach. I should’ve taken another flight to regain proficiency and I felt like the examiner was more than fair with this ride.

My third was my commercial multi engine checkride. I was a few thousand feet above the airport we were about to head in to land at and we did an emergency decent to get down to altitude. I did the emergency decent perfectly besides leaving the gear down. By the time I had noticed we were at pattern altitude on downwind for our destination airport and felt it would be unsafe to bring it back up at that point. The examiner agreed against taking it up at that point as well, unfortunately it was a bust because I did forget it. Again, totally my fault and I haven’t ever forgotten the gear again.

Fourth, I was doing my MEI as my initial and the examiner felt like he was having to pull the information out of me. I could understand where he was coming from and thought that was a fair bust as well.

Lastly, was my CFII, I briefed an approach plate wrong which was entirely unacceptable because I have my instrument rating and it was completely my fault.

I do not have a college degree but I’m currently working on it online. I have a pretty solid resume with loads of charity work, Eagle Scout, great references and soon I’m hoping to become a check airmen at the flight school I’m at.

Is it possible for me to get a job at a regional or even a major further after that? If you were in my situation what would you do? What tips do you have to make myself for marketable?

Thanks in advance for all of the help, I appreciate all of the positive and negative comments but please do not be bashful.

Mesa will hire you, without a doubt.

In all honesty, it shows that (at this time in your journey) you do not perform under pressure when stress is at its highest. This is not a very inspiring quality in an airline pilot. Yes someone will hire you, but you need to make some adjustments and changes. Failing airline initial is one thing, failure to perform during an actual emergency with revenue customers onboard is another. I’d consider getting some hours flying boxes around for a bit for more experience.

5 pink slips is a lot.

You should be able to get on with a regional. I would look at AA wholly owned if you want a chance at working at a legacy. It may not be bad idea to get in touch with a recruiter.

I have heard of one maybe two check failures never five. Your failures are lack of SA. It's a major safety issue.

I agree with this. You're still early in your aviation career. As you progress further whether it be with a regional, cargo or Part 91 outfit try to mitigate more failures. If you possess a spotless record going forward, your current failures will affect you less and less as you get more advanced ratings/type rides.

Off to a bad start.

Bottom feeder regional, yes.

For career progression to majors, the opportunities will be pretty limited.

Career Plan B might have to be a "better" regional, after you prove yourself at a bottom feeder regional.

If and only if you can maintain a squeaky clean training record from this point on (most especially in 121) you might have a shot at ULCC or ACMI as the pilot shortage worsens. You'll need the degree. Also any aviation leadership tickets such as check airman, chief pilot would help for sure.

At interviews, you'll need to be able to explain what happened, what you learned, what you changed, and also why it took you so long to figure it out. To put it bluntly you're the position of having to prove that you don't suck, and they're going to want to see a long trend. And you need the degree too.

I'll also do some soul searching, and consider whether your aptitude is up to the task (nobody here can answer that for you). May not want to bang your head on the wall if it's going to be an uphill struggle the whole way.

Guys who have multiple failures whether it be Part 61/141 and 121 still make it to the big leagues. Trust me, legacies have seen all types of failures. Now tell me about them and what did you learn from them is more important to the hiring board.

You wouldn't be invited to an interview if they were bothered by the number of failures...

Ask yourself if you’re ok with being a 20 year captain at a regional that is least appealing to you. If the answer is yes, I think it’s worth a shot. I know a guy with 5 failures flying for trans states. The struggling regionals will give almost anyone a chance to prove themselves in training. It is possible, but your opportunities for career progression will be almost nil. Like others have said, try the AA wholly owneds. Based on the people that I know that have been turned down there I don’t think it’s likely that they’d hire you, but it isn’t outside the realm of possibility. If you do get on somewhere, put in a few years with a spotless record and maybe try the lateral move to an AA wholly owned again.

You're 21, try to see if an AA wholly owned will hire you. Even with a 9 year flow you'll be doing great at a major by 30

Yeah, that's probably the only path to the bigs. I'm almost certain you'll need to prove yourself at another regional before they'd even consider you. Worth making the jump in your shoes, even after several years at another regional.

Actually, no. Even Mesa is starting to get picky about checkride failures.

I agree with the others, pick a regional that is owned by American.

ATP is notorious for sending students in to check rides when they are not ready

I too went to ATP and did many of my check rides in FT. Lauderdale with "Pink Slip Pinkston."
He had very easy orals, but would fail you for the slightest infraction during the flight. Needless to say, while working on my Flight Instructor ratings, I got two pink slips. The only thing I could do is distance myself over time from those failures.
Five failures all at the very beginning is unfortunate. You need to understand that you can never again fail anything, and that you aren't going to work at Delta, Fed Ex, UPS, Jet Blue, UA, etc. Distance yourself from the failures, have a decade of zero failures while advancing at a company, and you may get a top tier job. Yes, going to a wholy owned AA regional might be your safest bet, but any more failures will have you doing your plan B.
Almost everyone has a computer firewall for the application process, and it will kick out your resume with five failures, even with two. No chances to explain yourself, no human element that can relate to your story. Sorry man, this can be a very cruel industry to people who aren't established yet.
And it was Mesa that gave me the chance back then to prove myself. That in itself was all that I needed to overcome it. Being real with you though, five failures will be difficult for any 121 or 135 operation to look past. Maybe the corporate world coupled with a decent type rating will be an easier road? I have no idea.

Sadly, perhaps another case of trying to run a marathon before learning to walk. There’s something to not being in a rush.



Gf

I know a guy at a "top tier" regional with more failures than you have. You'll need to talk to a recruiter to get past the computer screening. For example, AA WO's throw out apps with more than 3.
And have one heck of a story about them. Words like "unfair" "wasn't prepared" should not be in your vocabulary when talking about it.

I have paid a ton of money to examiners and FLAP (**********g light airplane pilot) schools for my two sons training. I am not enamored with any of them, and that includes ATP, Flight Safety, just to name a few. There are two areas that I think are deficient: 1. Lack of standardization 2. Examiners who are running a tax fraud scam by taking only cash, and tabulating multiple failures to build up their incomes. Fortunately, I only had two of these guys in my career: one for ATP in a Navy N-265 and later a L-24. All of my ratings after that were company designees.

here we go again

i think i have heard this story before

You are asking him to put a lot of faith in a flow program that could disappear tomorrow.

Legacies have hired guys with multiple failures and not all of them were in early stages of training either. There are a few individuals with that many unsats but nothing is impossible, even at the legacy level. Guys with 121 failure(s) are also getting hired at the BIG 3.

I can assure you of that.

Or pointing out that that’s basically his only chance of going to the majors. I’d take the possibility of a flow over risking 0 career advancement at another regional.

Would you put your wife and kids in a plane with someone you’ve never met before, with similar background to you, who has 5 checkride failures? You’re signing up for harder training and checkrides every or 12 months for the rest of your career....you need to do some soul searching before anything else and decide if this is really the right career for you.

It sounds like on a lot of the check rides you're not even taking the blame. If you get an interview, don't make excuses. Own up to it and give an example of what you learned from each one. Right now, the top regionals are being more selective or not even hiring right now so your best bet is one of the lower tier ones.

Also study hard. Everything happens faster in a jet, so be prepared. You'll be taking 121 rides for the rest of your career so make sure you are up to snuff. If you add 121 failures with your record you might not get another job.

Best of luck

Buckle in.

Before we go further, this is the original question. Not what you can do at a major, not an introspection of character. Pure and simple: can you get hired at a REGIONAL with five prior failures during a practical test for a certificate or rating. The answer is YES. You can get hired at a regional with your background.

Having said that, some valid points have been raised, which I will address in turn. You are entry level. Your entry has not been good. Much in the same way that nobody really cares much about your gradeschool experience, however, there will come a time when you've put some distance and work experience behind you that the focus will be on what you're doing now, that counts, not what you did.

You'll always have checkride failures in your history. Your focus presently is on giving an employer something for comparison. You're going to build a better you.

You don't have it all to do over again, and this is a critical part of aviation: we can't fly into windshear, crash, and say that in hindsight, we'd have not done that. In aviation, judgement is everything. We all have challenges, and in our flying career, we're expected to manage our personal life as well as our career. This includes financial challenges, divorces, deaths in the family, setbacks, angry pets, constipation, tapeworms, trump, teenagers, and of course, days with the letter "r."

As a CFI, you understand the purpose of realistic distractions. It's not just a dropped pencil or pointing in the distance and barking "whatever can that be?" It's the ability to focus on flying despite whatever may crop up, to prioritize, and to persevere. Enough said.

I'm an employer: I'm listening to this story during your interview. I have a limited time to make a decision. First thing I want to hear is that you own it. You just told me that you don't. You disagree with the examiner. Interview over. If I give you a checkride, my decision is final; you will or won't get the job, and whether you disagree is irrelevant, because your opinion doesn't count. See how that works?

Your account needs to be simple: your short field landings weren't up to snuff. You got a discontinuance, and took another checkride and passed with flying colors. Moving on.

How you felt about the examiner is irrelevant. You struggled a bit on partial panel and retook the ride and passed. Do you see the trend here, what's important? You learned something, grew from the experience, and moved on. That's what I'm looking for here. Your immediate problem is that by having repeated failures, it shows a trend of NOT learning from the experience. You need to change that and change the perception of that.

Checkrides are a big deal in aviation. Your career is cumulative. Most job applications ask "have you ever," and you answer about things that have happened throughout your history; your FAA history is inclusive, and doesn't go away. Your only hope presently is to live an exemplary life: let the current you speak volumes for you, rather than your past errors having the loudest voice. Focus on going forward.

See previous comments regarding too much irrelevant information: this could be boiled down to situational awareness (and if your descent was into a traffic pattern, I'd question that act to begin with, especially in a training environment for traffic purposes, but also why one would raise the gear if you're landing anyway...I ask this rhetorically, because for the present, it's irrelevant).

Your comment here is more on track: you learned something and it's an error that you've never repeated because the lesson is so vivid for you. This is the takeaway, and the correct one.

Just take to heart the admonition of Roy Scheider in Blue Thunder: "you're new, you're young, you're supposed to be stupid, kid. Don't abuse it." It's a training environment. You're going to make mistakes. The focus is on whether you learn from those mistakes, are teachable, that you make corrections based on those mistakes, and don't repeat them. In this failure, you've done just that. (the larger question is why failures keep happening, which shows not learning, but we'll return to that. Life ain't over yet...don't let the dogpile of negativity overwhelm you just yet).

This sounds to me more like you hadn't learned to take a checkride, rather than you didn't know how to fly, teach, or had a deep seated deficiency. Your assessment is noted, however: you understand your deficiency and learned something. Whether you think it was fair is irrelevant. It's going to be assumed that any checkride busts are fair. Keep this in mind: the authority that gave you a checkride isn't on trial in an interview; their character or judgement will not be in question. Yours will be. The immediate question in the interviewers mind isn't the competency of those who gave the checkrides, especially if all your practical tests were given by different examiners: there's a consensus among the examiners by virtue of having had failures multiple times. If during a taste test five different people prefer pepsi over coke, it's quite different than one person tasting the same drink five times. You see the point?

The examiner isn't on trial. You are: every interview, every checkride is a kind of trial, in which the evidence you present is your performance weighed against the practical standards established for that test. In the case of a flight instructor practical test, the checkride has very little to do with your ability to fly, but to teach. From your statement, the examiner was looking for a bit more assertiveness. What I'd like to know is that you incorporated this lesson into your instructing and used it to become a better teacher. That's the takeaway.

It's not unacceptable because you have an instrument rating. It's unacceptable because you're supposed to be teaching it: that's the purpose of the checkride. Can you teach. Remember that you're setting the example, much like the captain in the cockpit. You're the standardizing pilot: you're the one passing on the information, the training, and that's what the checkride is checking.

In this case, you own it, which is good, but it's going to be assumed (or should be) that you own every one, because you must. The takeaway from this experience is that your briefing needed to be better, and having learned, you made it so.

This is the theme: show that you learned from your mistakes. Did I wear diapers until I was six and struggle with potty training? I don't know, but what the world really cares about is do I wear my big-boy pants now? Have I learned? Can I sit down on the bus without scaring away the other cattle? One hopes. The world runs on "what have you done for me lately," rather than tell me about your mom and pop. The question is not how your other five hundred landings were, but only your last one, because that's how your next landing will be judged. That last one will be the job you're doing now: be exemplary, be a shining rockstar that has come from a rough and shady past to become the posterchild for good, clean behavior.

I have a son who was an eagle scout. I just spent time with a captain who was originally hired because he was an eagle scout. It speaks to character, every bit as much as failures on one's past do, and when I say failures, I use a silent "f" which is pronounced phonetically as "l e a r n i n g e x p e r i e n c e s." See how that works? Did you have five failures that will haunt your career for life, or five learning experiences that will ultimately make you the right choice for the job?

In writing, we have a really overused expression: show, don't tell. You can tell me you've come a long way, but it will bore me and I'll be watching the blonde chick over your shoulder, or studying dead flies in the light fixtures. You can show me by your record that you create now, and you'll have my attention. How do you do that?

You mentioned becoming a checkairman. That's a powerful show.

Gold seal flight instructor: a lot of people have them, but much like your eagle scout, it's what the gold seal says about you. Instructors who have students who fail a lot are surrounded by mirrors; student failures say as much about the instructor as the student, and that brings me to one of my final points here: if you did all your training at ATP and continued to have failures, this says quite a bit about the training you were receiving: an instructor should NOT let a student go to a practical test, if the instructor isn't fully confident in the student. Your revelation about five checkride failures immediately sets an image in my mind of a bad training facility, and leaves a bad impression of the instruction received. This may or may not be true, but apply the same logic to your job: a gold seal is about a high pass rate, which is a stamp of approval on the degree to which you take your job as an instructor seriously. It's about focus, pride in the craftsmanship of the job: it's about being a professional.

Go for that check airman position. Seek after the gold seal. Be the guy that others want to give a letter of recommendation. Let your work speak for you. You can't change your prior checkrides, but you can determine that the here-and-now speaks well of you. Ensure you don't speak critically of former employers, check airmen, instructors: own your past and don't project it on others. Own your present, too.

You may be asked to brief an approach as part of an interview. Maybe you did fail a checkride for a briefing, or maybe it was a pretext for ending the checkride that day because you had other things going on. I don't know. I don't care. But today, in this interview, you give the best brief known to mankind and angry dachshund alike, when asked to brief an approach. Make that brief your *****. Own it, possess it, wear it like stink on a gorilla, and you'll impress me more with that than all the things you did in primary flight training combined.

Begin building a history of checkride passes, student passes, recommendations, accomplishments. You can't change the past, don't try. You can build the future. Do that. You had some rocky moments in training, persevered, and you're a learning machine, better at ever turn, teachable, professional, ready to go. That's the you that you need to sell. Sounds like you're already started building. Make it so, number one.

Actually, I think a well structured 121 training program is easier.

Go mil, you’ll blanket those 5 failures with 11 years of military flying experience, they won’t bat an eye at them.

This is true, I actually had not thought of that. The military may very well not even ask about civilian checkride failures, and if they do it will be in an informal interview setting, not on any paperwork.

I'd say safest path is AA WO, then mil. Mil could be guard/reserve... get a seniority number at mesa first, then go out on mil training.

Caveat... mil flight training will be harder than anything you've ever done. You will need to apply the lessons you've hopefully learned on the civilian path. But it will be consistent, if you give it your all and have the basic aptitude you will graduate. A little previous flight time and ratings will help, as long as you do everything the way they tell you to.

I do agree that ten years of clean mil flying (AD or reserve) will pretty much put those checkride failures to bed as far as the majors are concerned.

AA WO won't process applications with 5 busts. You need it to be manually processed as a special case, and without prior 121 or military or other significant experience, they won't take you.

Yes, nobody is saying it would be easy, we all think he's definitely going to need to work for a bottom-feeder or 135 for a while.

Also... I hear the fractionals are pretty hard up too. Probably needs turbine time for that.

I think the original poster is easy to empathize with.

Supporting a family in your late teens or early twenties is no small task. Yes, professional pilots are required to balance work and life. Students pilots have to balance work, life and training to be a pilot. I’d argue the original poster may not ever experience that same amount of stress.

The other thing the OP has going is that they went to ATP. Anyone in the industry knows ATP is famous for failed check rides and that the busts don’t necessarily show a lack of aptitude. It just deepens an already known perception that ATP sends people to checkrides they aren’t always ready for.

If he can get his application past the computers and into the hands of a recruiter, I think he stands a good chance at doing well at an interview as long as he knows his stuff and takes the advice already given here

IMHO, this thread is loaded with good information and helpful advice.
That’s one of the main reasons APC was started.


https://media1.giphy.com/media/NJZMSqRY3rG9i/giphy.gif

I could have failed every check ride I’ve ever taken but i didn’t.
What I’m trying to say is that sometimes....and only sometimes....things just simply work against you.
With your history I wouldn’t have done the MEI as an initial.
I’m thinking somebody talked you into that and they didn’t do you a favor.
In any case work diligently on your future. Many won’t make it to the Fedex/UPS/UA/DL’s of this world for various reasons. Not many athletes make it to the Olympics either.
Gold seal/ asst Chief Flight instructor/ Check instructor 141 are all the immediate goals.
You may want to consider a sidestep to 135 next. Stick around till upgrade time then start looking at 121.
You’ve now proven that can you pass professional proficiency checks and you’ve measured up for upgrade.
I’ve managed to bypass the Regionals altogether as I couldn’t afford them at the time as is bought a house as a CFI :D
To stay in GoT terminology, the Regionals are the Pit of Hopefuls, you may be picked up or you may not.
“Flows” can be cancelled at any time by the Lords of Darkness and they’re by no means a guarantee.
Any idea where that money for your sign on bonus comes from?
5 years at a Regional before flow to a Major will safe them 5 years seniority at the other end. And that’s a whole lot more then $50k.
Enjoy your career, don’t get stressed out. On paper it may look bad but that doesn’t mean that you are bad.
Be the best you can be in every career step.
I’ll be the first one to tell you I didn’t even grow a brain till 28.
I was voted least likely to succeed in HS.
Carry on son.
This guy had every reason to fail in life and he didn’t:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJn_p9bJYXA

I’ve been teaching people going to 135s that are coming from Cessna 152/172s going straight to Learjets. Corporate is hurting for people. Mostly because their pay and work rules still kinda suck. I don’t know a lot of people who want to do 14 on/7 off for $45k.

There are much better schedules then that.
In any case I went from $45k instructing working 24/7/365 to $45k working 14 on / 14 off flying a jet 135.
Felt like I was on permanent vacation.
It’s not always about the money and a lot of these jobs are temporary as in 1-3 years.
Don’t treat 135 as a second rate choice.
In two years I flew to every state except Alaska and Hawaii, every Class B and pretty much every Class C and all high altitude airports ( Aspen, Telluride etc). I dare say that was a whole lot more exciting and varied then a Regional could have offered.
I went from 135> 121(s) > 121 ACMI

Seems like the only way to find 135 jobs is to "know a guy". Where do you find them?

climbto350.com

You don't need to know anybody to get a 135 job.

I've never had a job in my life that I got because I knew someone.

Just apply.

One thing not mentioned so far is that in your situation you definitely want a back up plan with your college degree just in case things don’t work out. And seriously reconsider your study preparation habits and your mindset when operating the aircraft.

One more thing about this whole situation. Anyone who fails that many upfront in the pilot training should not even be attempting the CFI. At that point if you are at three you would still be OK for the career. There are ways to build time with just a commercial. Banner towing and sightseeing tours come to mind.