What would you do?
10-30-2021, 06:16 PM
#21
Occasional box hauler
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,683
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
I've worked for half a dozen or so veteran owned operations in which the owners refused to hire any more military, because they'd had such bad experiences. One operator, owned and run by career military, had seven mil guys hired, put through Flight Safety at company expense, and not one of them showed up for work. They took the type, and ran. That was it. It's that kind of behavior that leads operators to institute training bonds and contracts or some operators to start charging for training.
It doesn't matter if it's a regional airline, or a corporate flight department. There are training costs associated with bringing a pilot on board. That pilot who comes aboard and accepts the training and type rating (a costly enhancement to his resume and an addition to his pilot certification that has a value), has filled a slot in a training class. If he doesn't intend to stay, or runs when he sees the next shiny airplane or. brass ring, means he filled a slot that a more reliable, honest pilot with more integrity, could have filled, instead. Now that training time has been wasted, a new pilot must be interviewed and hired, and brought aboard, and a new class assigned. It may take months to fill the original slot, because the original pilot has bailed.
If one is to argue that there's no training contract, therefore that pilot has no obligation to remain, it's tantamount to begging for a training contract, and at the same time quite literally saying, "I'll only be honest and show an element of integrity if you force me." If it's suggested that only those pilots with a hiring bonus should show integrity, it's tantamount to saying that one doesn't need to be honest or show integrity without extra pay. It implies that the training and type rating have no value.
Military pilots should well understand that the training comes with an obligation. Every military pilot has had such an obligation, and a contract, not free to simply walk away. That the airline doesn't require it doesn't mean that the pilot should feel free to simply walk away, having accepted the training, the resume enhancement, and the job.
If you aren't willing to stay and put in some time and effort, don't waste everyone's time and take the training under false pretenses. That applies regardless of whether one comes from a military track, or a civil one.
It doesn't matter if it's a regional airline, or a corporate flight department. There are training costs associated with bringing a pilot on board. That pilot who comes aboard and accepts the training and type rating (a costly enhancement to his resume and an addition to his pilot certification that has a value), has filled a slot in a training class. If he doesn't intend to stay, or runs when he sees the next shiny airplane or. brass ring, means he filled a slot that a more reliable, honest pilot with more integrity, could have filled, instead. Now that training time has been wasted, a new pilot must be interviewed and hired, and brought aboard, and a new class assigned. It may take months to fill the original slot, because the original pilot has bailed.
If one is to argue that there's no training contract, therefore that pilot has no obligation to remain, it's tantamount to begging for a training contract, and at the same time quite literally saying, "I'll only be honest and show an element of integrity if you force me." If it's suggested that only those pilots with a hiring bonus should show integrity, it's tantamount to saying that one doesn't need to be honest or show integrity without extra pay. It implies that the training and type rating have no value.
Military pilots should well understand that the training comes with an obligation. Every military pilot has had such an obligation, and a contract, not free to simply walk away. That the airline doesn't require it doesn't mean that the pilot should feel free to simply walk away, having accepted the training, the resume enhancement, and the job.
If you aren't willing to stay and put in some time and effort, don't waste everyone's time and take the training under false pretenses. That applies regardless of whether one comes from a military track, or a civil one.
10-30-2021, 07:46 PM
#23
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,020
Originally Posted by tnkrdrvr
Every job in the world, from Walmart greeter to 74 Capt, requires some initial training after hiring. The cost of that training is commensurate to the value added of the position being filled. An airline’s management won’t spare a second thought to its obligations to an employee before laying them off, if business interests make it expedient. A pilot attempting to attain employment at a solid career destination job cannot afford to be any less Machiavellian. These are business arrangements we are discussing. They exist solely to generate profit for those involved. I don’t know if military guys are any more or less Machiavellian about it, but I do know that any study of military history teaches that fighting fair is a losing proposition. Leverage every advantage you have and seek to minimize your vulnerabilities if you want to succeed. Airline guys lucked out (relatively) during this last black swan. Only a fool would assume that will continue. Nobody cares about your family finances more than you.
You're comparing and contrasting curtain climbing to the next shiny jet or the big brass ring, to an airline furloughing?
The cost of training a Walmart greeter isn't much of a comparison to the cost of training and type rating an airline pilot. The wage accorded both isn't remotely comparable, either.
You appear to believe that the ends justify the means. That is unfortunate.
These are business arrangements, you say. A pilot begs a job, is interviewed, and found worthy. He is offered. He is given the terms, and he accepts. He agrees to the wage, and to the job, and knows the investment the operator will make. He takes this investment, which isn't simply training for the job, ala glorified Walmart greeter. He receives a 20,000-40,000 dollar enhancement to his career resume, and unlike the Walmart greeter, his is a lifetime career professional career. His pilot certificate is enhanced with a lifelong professional certification, increasing the value of that certificate, and his value and ranking in future job applications . He is not ignorant of this investment, nor the value which it brings to him.
Having known the terms, and accepted them, having taken the training on an honor arrangement between him, a professional, and the company, three months later when a shinier jet, bigger jet, or better paycheck presents itself, he forsakes his obligation, shamelessly walks away with the investment from his former employer and no intention to repay that investment, and moves on.
Eventually, operators begin charging the pilots that follow, either through a training wage, training bond, or historically in some cases, payment up front. If you haven't been in the industry long, you may not recall a few years ago when this was common practice. Those unprofessionals who take the training and run end up defecating in the bed in which others to follow, must lay. It's not fighting a war, and there's nothing noble about the dishonor of taking the training and running away. Don't attempt to compare that to a professional soldier fighting a war. It's disrespectful to the soldier.
10-31-2021, 08:23 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,091
Imagine going through life thinking you have to ‘give back’ to a soulless corporation because you went through their training, a corporation that wouldn’t give a second thought about laying you off when their balance sheet dictated it.
If that corporation really cared about retaining their employees, maybe they would pay their employees what they’re worth and not abuse them with terrible work rules?
Why is it only the employee who has to have the integrity and the loyalty and the service mindset? Corporations do not care about you. Corporations do not have honor. Corporations do not have loyalty.
You are faceless labor that management would gleefully pay minimum wage if they could get away with it. American companies have been exploiting their employees for decades (and still do, and will continue to do so); becoming an active participant in your own exploitation is for suckers
If that corporation really cared about retaining their employees, maybe they would pay their employees what they’re worth and not abuse them with terrible work rules?
Why is it only the employee who has to have the integrity and the loyalty and the service mindset? Corporations do not care about you. Corporations do not have honor. Corporations do not have loyalty.
You are faceless labor that management would gleefully pay minimum wage if they could get away with it. American companies have been exploiting their employees for decades (and still do, and will continue to do so); becoming an active participant in your own exploitation is for suckers
11-01-2021, 05:38 AM
#26
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,020
You may be confused about who is the beggar, and who is the chooser.
You may also forget who came to the corporation, hat in hand, in supplication for a job.
You may also forget who graced whom, with 50,000 dollars in training and career enhancement at the outset of that business relationship.
If you do forget, that is unfortunate.
Having been given fifty grand in career enhancement, which you take with you regardless of whether you walk or are fired, layed off, or "forgotten," you still leave with that career enhancement.
If you took it without giving back and walk away, the employer doesn't owe you. You owe the employer.
If the employer chooses to no longer employ you, you still walk away with that value.
You may forget that it's not the employer that owes you. When you've been provided that expensive, career-enhancing training, you may be forgetting that the obligation is yours.
You may also forget who came to the corporation, hat in hand, in supplication for a job.
You may also forget who graced whom, with 50,000 dollars in training and career enhancement at the outset of that business relationship.
If you do forget, that is unfortunate.
Having been given fifty grand in career enhancement, which you take with you regardless of whether you walk or are fired, layed off, or "forgotten," you still leave with that career enhancement.
If you took it without giving back and walk away, the employer doesn't owe you. You owe the employer.
If the employer chooses to no longer employ you, you still walk away with that value.
You may forget that it's not the employer that owes you. When you've been provided that expensive, career-enhancing training, you may be forgetting that the obligation is yours.
