What would you do?
10-09-2021, 05:41 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 840
It's difficult to say unless one is familiar with your background, experience level, age, and education. Generally, pay for the first year will be on par with the regionals. Regionals do have some good benefits based on their affiliations, such as travel, etc and while you might say commuting is not a big deal, it makes a difference if you are commuting on your own metal (regional or affiliate) versus OAL. From what I read, Sun Country is not a "commuter" airline as such and so there is the added hassle of getting hotels or crash pads before and after trips. If I lived in base, then it would easily trump a regional and make entry elsewhere quicker perhaps. No guarantees in this business.
10-10-2021, 03:41 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Posts: 307
If I had a lot of things preventing me from moving then I would stay put with the regional.
if I was single and didn’t own a house, I’d be packing up my bags for Minneapolis
EDIT: I guess one more thing to consider is where you want to end up. If you want to end up at American and work for one of their WO’s right now, they might hold onto resentment that they trained you for nothing.
if I was single and didn’t own a house, I’d be packing up my bags for Minneapolis
EDIT: I guess one more thing to consider is where you want to end up. If you want to end up at American and work for one of their WO’s right now, they might hold onto resentment that they trained you for nothing.
10-10-2021, 07:36 AM
#13
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by DontLookDown
EDIT: I guess one more thing to consider is where you want to end up. If you want to end up at American and work for one of their WO’s right now, they might hold onto resentment that they trained you for nothing.
10-29-2021, 08:09 PM
#14
New Hire
Joined APC: Sep 2021
Posts: 8
[QUOTE=dera;3305518]This might have been the case in the past, but based on my recent anecdotal evidence, I don't think it is as clear cut any more. I know a bunch of captains and LCAs at regionals who are struggling to get a call from anyone. But after my recent new type, we (with a bunch of my new hire classmates) are getting calls literally within a week of clicking the new type box. And I am talking about United, Delta and so on, with no 121 PIC time. A friend of mine just did a touch and go at an ULCC, he got called to a legacy interview before he finished IOE after he updated his app with an Airbus type. 0 121 PIC.
Recent 121 training event seems to be very valuable. And I am going to guess based on our attrition numbers, a non-regional type seems to have quite a bit of value.[/QUOTE
On the topic of updating your application, should one update their resume/airlineapps to reflect that they have passed upgrade ground school and checkride but still waiting for OE because of a long training backlog?
Recent 121 training event seems to be very valuable. And I am going to guess based on our attrition numbers, a non-regional type seems to have quite a bit of value.[/QUOTE
On the topic of updating your application, should one update their resume/airlineapps to reflect that they have passed upgrade ground school and checkride but still waiting for OE because of a long training backlog?
10-30-2021, 02:19 AM
#15
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,009
Originally Posted by Myfingershurt
Unless you took a signing bonus you literally don’t owe that regional anything. Advance your career.
The morals and ethic continues to go downhill. Take the training and run, never give back, and it's all about the individual. Professionalism is dead, it seems.
If one is willing take the job, grow some integrity and give service. If that regional gave you a type rating, then stay a year. To take the training and run is unethical and low-minded.
You really think that the company has spent nothing on you, simply because you didn't get a "bonus?" You will exercise a modicum of integrity, but only if you're paid extra to do it?
The cost to the employer that just hired, trained, and typed, is more than the training wage, the hotel, and other expenses. It's the cost of losing that employee and having to train a replacement.
If one has such low integrity as to take the training and run, then don't take the job in the first place; save the employer the trouble of trusting you, and let them hire someone more worthy of the job.
10-30-2021, 10:21 AM
#16
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Other than the cost of being trained, and being replaced.
The morals and ethic continues to go downhill. Take the training and run, never give back, and it's all about the individual. Professionalism is dead, it seems.
If one is willing take the job, grow some integrity and give service. If that regional gave you a type rating, then stay a year. To take the training and run is unethical and low-minded.
You really think that the company has spent nothing on you, simply because you didn't get a "bonus?" You will exercise a modicum of integrity, but only if you're paid extra to do it?
The cost to the employer that just hired, trained, and typed, is more than the training wage, the hotel, and other expenses. It's the cost of losing that employee and having to train a replacement.
If one has such low integrity as to take the training and run, then don't take the job in the first place; save the employer the trouble of trusting you, and let them hire someone more worthy of the job.
The morals and ethic continues to go downhill. Take the training and run, never give back, and it's all about the individual. Professionalism is dead, it seems.
If one is willing take the job, grow some integrity and give service. If that regional gave you a type rating, then stay a year. To take the training and run is unethical and low-minded.
You really think that the company has spent nothing on you, simply because you didn't get a "bonus?" You will exercise a modicum of integrity, but only if you're paid extra to do it?
The cost to the employer that just hired, trained, and typed, is more than the training wage, the hotel, and other expenses. It's the cost of losing that employee and having to train a replacement.
If one has such low integrity as to take the training and run, then don't take the job in the first place; save the employer the trouble of trusting you, and let them hire someone more worthy of the job.
How long do you have to stay in order to leave on honorable terms?
Is there a set value for all employers and circumstances? 24 months? If you asked the RAA, I'm sure they'd say 36 months (or more).
Or is it variable by circumstance? If so, how do you calculate that? What's the formula?
10-30-2021, 11:39 AM
#17
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,009
A fairly well recognized standard for several decades now has been one year for an initial type (as I said in my post, and as you quoted me saying), and six months for a recurrent.
The dishonor of taking the training and running isn't limited to a few. We've seen a string of posters here over the years asking how they can get out of training contracts, for example, having signed an agreement to remain, but not willing to fulfill their obligations after receiving what they get what they want.
I have seen this more commonly with military pilots than civil-trained pilots, but this type of dishonor is found in both, evidenced here by those who seek to get out of training obligations, and those advising how, or why they should. Some suggest that a training bond should never be required, but it's driven by those who lack the integrity and honesty to not take the training and run.
The dishonor of taking the training and running isn't limited to a few. We've seen a string of posters here over the years asking how they can get out of training contracts, for example, having signed an agreement to remain, but not willing to fulfill their obligations after receiving what they get what they want.
I have seen this more commonly with military pilots than civil-trained pilots, but this type of dishonor is found in both, evidenced here by those who seek to get out of training obligations, and those advising how, or why they should. Some suggest that a training bond should never be required, but it's driven by those who lack the integrity and honesty to not take the training and run.
10-30-2021, 02:46 PM
#18
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
I have seen this more commonly with military pilots than civil-trained pilots, but this type of dishonor is found in both, evidenced here by those who seek to get out of training obligations, and those advising how, or why they should. Some suggest that a training bond should never be required, but it's driven by those who lack the integrity and honesty to not take the training and run.
As fas as recurrent... maybe in corporate land. But airlines? I usually have had recurrent every 6-9 months (one AQP carrier had it up to 12 months). So totally unrealistic to shut down your window of opportunity to move from a stepping-stone airline to a major for six months each year (perhaps missing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity). Or for any months. Same for types, it's just the cost of doing business for airlines.
Also... I view the seam between regionals and legacies as an management-imposed artificiality. Weapons-free in that zone, airlines did it to themselves.
10-30-2021, 03:14 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
A fairly well recognized standard for several decades now has been one year for an initial type (as I said in my post, and as you quoted me saying), and six months for a recurrent.
The dishonor of taking the training and running isn't limited to a few. We've seen a string of posters here over the years asking how they can get out of training contracts, for example, having signed an agreement to remain, but not willing to fulfill their obligations after receiving what they get what they want.
I have seen this more commonly with military pilots than civil-trained pilots, but this type of dishonor is found in both, evidenced here by those who seek to get out of training obligations, and those advising how, or why they should. Some suggest that a training bond should never be required, but it's driven by those who lack the integrity and honesty to not take the training and run.
The dishonor of taking the training and running isn't limited to a few. We've seen a string of posters here over the years asking how they can get out of training contracts, for example, having signed an agreement to remain, but not willing to fulfill their obligations after receiving what they get what they want.
I have seen this more commonly with military pilots than civil-trained pilots, but this type of dishonor is found in both, evidenced here by those who seek to get out of training obligations, and those advising how, or why they should. Some suggest that a training bond should never be required, but it's driven by those who lack the integrity and honesty to not take the training and run.
10-30-2021, 04:41 PM
#20
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,009
I've worked for half a dozen or so veteran owned operations in which the owners refused to hire any more military, because they'd had such bad experiences. One operator, owned and run by career military, had seven mil guys hired, put through Flight Safety at company expense, and not one of them showed up for work. They took the type, and ran. That was it. It's that kind of behavior that leads operators to institute training bonds and contracts or some operators to start charging for training.
It doesn't matter if it's a regional airline, or a corporate flight department. There are training costs associated with bringing a pilot on board. That pilot who comes aboard and accepts the training and type rating (a costly enhancement to his resume and an addition to his pilot certification that has a value), has filled a slot in a training class. If he doesn't intend to stay, or runs when he sees the next shiny airplane or. brass ring, means he filled a slot that a more reliable, honest pilot with more integrity, could have filled, instead. Now that training time has been wasted, a new pilot must be interviewed and hired, and brought aboard, and a new class assigned. It may take months to fill the original slot, because the original pilot has bailed.
If one is to argue that there's no training contract, therefore that pilot has no obligation to remain, it's tantamount to begging for a training contract, and at the same time quite literally saying, "I'll only be honest and show an element of integrity if you force me." If it's suggested that only those pilots with a hiring bonus should show integrity, it's tantamount to saying that one doesn't need to be honest or show integrity without extra pay. It implies that the training and type rating have no value.
Military pilots should well understand that the training comes with an obligation. Every military pilot has had such an obligation, and a contract, not free to simply walk away. That the airline doesn't require it doesn't mean that the pilot should feel free to simply walk away, having accepted the training, the resume enhancement, and the job.
If you aren't willing to stay and put in some time and effort, don't waste everyone's time and take the training under false pretenses. That applies regardless of whether one comes from a military track, or a civil one.
It doesn't matter if it's a regional airline, or a corporate flight department. There are training costs associated with bringing a pilot on board. That pilot who comes aboard and accepts the training and type rating (a costly enhancement to his resume and an addition to his pilot certification that has a value), has filled a slot in a training class. If he doesn't intend to stay, or runs when he sees the next shiny airplane or. brass ring, means he filled a slot that a more reliable, honest pilot with more integrity, could have filled, instead. Now that training time has been wasted, a new pilot must be interviewed and hired, and brought aboard, and a new class assigned. It may take months to fill the original slot, because the original pilot has bailed.
If one is to argue that there's no training contract, therefore that pilot has no obligation to remain, it's tantamount to begging for a training contract, and at the same time quite literally saying, "I'll only be honest and show an element of integrity if you force me." If it's suggested that only those pilots with a hiring bonus should show integrity, it's tantamount to saying that one doesn't need to be honest or show integrity without extra pay. It implies that the training and type rating have no value.
Military pilots should well understand that the training comes with an obligation. Every military pilot has had such an obligation, and a contract, not free to simply walk away. That the airline doesn't require it doesn't mean that the pilot should feel free to simply walk away, having accepted the training, the resume enhancement, and the job.
If you aren't willing to stay and put in some time and effort, don't waste everyone's time and take the training under false pretenses. That applies regardless of whether one comes from a military track, or a civil one.
