60av8tor

Instead I'll get offended by someone calling me out on my incredibly horrible advice. I'm a man...🤣🤣

Yes, especially the advice that a couple of training failures... eh... no biggie. Everyone makes mistakes. You can read pages about owning up to them, learning from them, putting a positive spin on them in an interview. You can also begin to read pages about a perceived hiring slowdown. Do EVERYTHING in your power to prevent lingering failures (multiples at that) from gracing your resume.

NatGeo

Not sure why some guys get their panties tied up in a knot when they read something they do not like here.

"Don't fail out of training." That is not strong detailed advice in my opinion with this guy and his particular experience.

The odds he fails out of his first 121 training are very high.

My advice covers that likely scenario. Your advice does not cover the 99% likely scenario.

I have been respectful so far, hate the know it all types on here. Probably never worked in a training department before.

60av8tor

No panties in a knot here, I just think it is horrid to tell a guy to not worry about failures on your record. I could say you are also reading something you don't like - yeah I'm directly disagreeing with you. I'm not trying to give the dude detailed advice - would need a lot more info to do so - just telling him yours is about the worst he could get.

Been in numerous training environments - as trainer and recipient - and that has no bearing on anything, but good god man, it's just really poor form to remotely hint that a program training failure is no big deal. The guy has 3000 and can't get a bite and you think adding a couple of failures to that is no big deal. WTH???


Yup, sounds like everyone else is the know it all...🤔

Sliceback

The odds of failure are low.

The percentage of guys who can fly, work hard, learn at the expected rate, and fail out of training is zero. It's not 'very high' that they'll fail training. The vast majority DON'T fail out of training. If they catch themselves struggling, instead of thinking 'this happens to a lot of candidates', they should be showing up as prepared as they can, working hard, studying hard, asking for assistance, and NOT jumping into the frying pan if they think they're weak in the first place.

^ There was a thread about a PSA (?) CKA thought guys complained about. Allegedly high bust rate. Others jumped in - "he does a good job. Thorough. Sharp. He's not out to get people, he just expects you to perform as required." More than a "highly likely" failure rate? Probably not. But the 'it's unfair' crowd sure speaks up quickly.

New hire candidate got pushed through by senior flight department management. Hiring guy said he thought they needed another year of MEL flying at a regional/turboprop job. He thought the step from their current job to the new job (CFI and light MEL recip) was too big a step at one time (Big 3 airline). Overruled. Was one of the low single digit percentage of candidates that failed out of training. "I feel that we ruined the candidate. The push was to 'get them onboard' vs 'is this candidate ready for this?' Instead of gaining more experience and being ready for this job they ended up with a failure, and firing, from a Big 3 airline. That's hard to overcome in the job market AND pyschologically."

DMartin12

1. I currently live on the east coast of Florida. 2 hours drive to both MCO and FLL.

2. I'm willing to move really anywhere in the states for the right job. However, I want to avoid moving for a stepping stone type of job where I plan to move again in another 1-2 years

3. Not right now. I live with my SO and she works from home so moving is not an issue

4. 26

I should have clarified that I do meet unrestricted ATP minimums. The weekest areas are night time and instrument time but I do meet the minimums by a handful of hours on both accounts.


I do particularly like this comment. I stayed where I am for the unique/interesting/fun flying that I have been doing the past few years. To be honest I love the type of flying I do now. However, I would like to have a little better work/life balance among other things and the 121 carriers seem to be the best in this regard. I avoided it for a long time, but I think its time I move to a "real" pilot job.


I have been offered a job as an SIC on a King Air 350 that really does seem like a decent job, but I am hesistant because it is still just another turboprop and I feel at this point I am qualified for jet time. I just have to find the right opportunity.

rickair7777

Jet would be better, but at least the 350 is multi turbine crew experience, a step in the right direction.

Make sure you can log the SIC, ie the OPSPEC requires an SIC for the types of flying you plan to log. SIC may be legally required for revenue legs but not 91 repo legs. There's a a good carve out to allow logging all SIC, if the operator implements the SIC PDP.

Insurance requirement, company policy, owner request, etc do not constitute an FAR-required SIC.

Sliceback

You're 26 and you're enjoying being home every night? Will that job be around for the next 40 years? Now's the time to be improving your resume and taking near term decisions to improve your long term career prospects. Continuing to fly in your current job probably might have close to zero value for the long term career job choices. What is your resume missing? Work on solving those issues. Not hearing from any of the fractionals, regionals, or 121 careers? Do you think STAYING at your current job will make them call you? Or is there a better path? I'd put my money, like you've noticed, and getting multi-pilot experience, larger aircarft time, jet time, and at least Part 135 if not Part 121 experience. None of those resume improvements are HUGE changes but when you're an old fart you notice the newbies that don't check those boxes. The newbies often mention the learning curve. That's the whole point of resume improvement, get better in smaller steps so that you're more likely to do better at the next step up the ladder.

Like being home every night? That's great...but sh!tty career planning advice. Get the job that improves your resume. How many of the smaller operators offering 7/7 or 8/6 schedules with 'home basing' (ie they buy you airline tickets to met the plane) have you applied to? What's the best improvement to your resume - sucking it up for a year flying a Part 135 corporate jet for a year, or more, of continuing to stay at your current job.

I was 22 years old, flying corporate turboprop left seat 700 hrs a year. Had 1800 hrs TT. $80K, company car and gas, annual clothing allowance (2 suits + shirts), all expensives paid on the road, to include booze at dinner but not in the bars....so guess how much we drank at dinner?? :-) It was a GREAT job, and resume builder, at 22. Fast forward a year and my old commuter buddies are applying to be my copilot...and I quit and become their FO instead including a 63% pay cut ($9360). They were stunned "what are you doing here?!?!??" "I don't plan on retiring from either of these jobs." Flying had reduced from 700 hrs a year (left seat PIC for me) to 250 hrs a year. I went to the other company and got 850 hrs in 10 months. TT was now 2650 hrs. Next job...required 2500 hrs to get hired. If I had stayed at my old job it would have taken me 3 yrs to get to 2500 hrs. Keeping my foot on the gas opened the door for that job...which lead to the next job....which lead to my destination job. KEEP YOUR FOOT ON THE GAS until you reach your destination job. I told an Envoy CKA who had a flow through date with AA the same thing - "you've been chasing your career hard...until you got you flow through class announced. You've been a CKA on two a/c, worked in the training department and the flight office. Why? Because they think highly of you. Now that you have a job with AA in an estimated 14 months you're going to relax? Relax when you're at AA." He said "I'm glad I got stuck on the jumpseat. You gave me a kick in the pants that I needed." He went out and got hired 10 months (700 numbers) sooner.

You're 26. Get moving. Improve yourself every opportunity you can. Don't buy houses, cars, boats, etc, that slow you down. Go to place that requires a training contract bond? Get a better job in 3, 6, 9 months? Pay the penalty and change jobs. If you get hired a month sooner at a major airline the last months of your career will be putting over $20,000 a month in your pocket. Think long term, act short term.

rickair7777

TLDR?

This right here...

The epic glory days are winding down fast, the industry will return to it's normal cyclical self before too long, and taking an unnecessary delay to make a next move might cost you a decade at TOS CA pay on the back end.

DMartin12

Point taken. Prior to this I stuck to unique and abnormal jobs to avoid the grind your describing but this is the point in my career where I think I am deciding to commit to the hustle. I understand that I'll have to make some sacrifices to get where I want to be. On the flip side I have known a handful of pilots who made themselves and their families miserable for years to get to the majors only to loose their medical in the first 2 years and switch careers. Its all a matter of perspective.

Back to the point, I understand I need to improve my resume. I know there are smaller operators who offer home basing, that would be ideal. But who? It seems like many have stopped hiring this year.


Again, I'm not trying to delay, just trying to find the right opportunity. That KA350 SIC job is in improvemnt, but not by much. Is it worth commiting a year to that?

Sliceback

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/part-135

I know of at least three others not on that list - Baker Aviation (CP posts often on APC), Nichols Air and GrandView Aviation. There's more out there.

A couple of guys have worked hard to get to a major only to lose their medical? Out of the thousands who succeeded? That's great that it happened then and not while they were trying to get to the majors. Lose your medical at the majors and you get 50-60% of you last year's salary until you turn 65. That's a FANTASTIC stroke of luck. If they had lost their medical before getting a major airline job the LTD programs are usually worse and often non, or close to non, existent.