DMartin12

Hi all,

I'm a long time part 91 pilot and always thought I didn't want to work in the 121/135 world...until recently. Now I'm having a hard time trying to get my foot in the door somewhere and I'm not sure what my next move should be. I have nearly 3000 hours TT, 650 multi, almost all of that is PIC time. I have little actual instrument and night time. Typical part 91 piston and turboprop operations. I have flight test experience and am very competent in my flying but just don't get a lot of opportunity to fly at night/in weather/turbines/multi-crew/etc.

Lately I have been thinking of making the switch toward jet flying and more of a traditional pilot career. I completed the atp/ctp on my own and passed the ATP written in preperation for this. So far I have applied to the fractionals, regionals, cargo and essentially all of the 121 companies that are willing to sponsor the ATP in addition to their training, but I have not had much luck. It seems like I am coming in to the 121 world at a difficult time as hiring is slowing down. I didn't hear back from any regionals except Skywest, Netjets said TBNT after my HR call, Flexjet upped their total time requirement after offering me an interview and cancelled my interview slot, and on and on. Admittedly at first I was a little lazy with my applications/interview prep but lately have taken it more seriously after I got an offer to interview with Air Tranport International. I feel like I made a good showing during that interview but was ultimately not offered the job. The latest call I had was with Atlas who said they would be interested in scheduling an interview after I got 100hrs of experience in a mutli-crew environment.

So now i'm trying to decide where to go from here. I don't want to take a bad job just to build multi-crew time for this Atlas offer that may or may not still be there in 6 months. I also have a stable and well paying part 91 job where I am home every night currently that I am hesitant to leave if the 121 job market is declining. On the flip side I do probably need to take another job to build the experience that will make me more competetive in the job market.

Any advice? Or recomendations of where to apply?

NatGeo

Hey DMartin12, I will try and give you some advice about where you should apply.

Few questions for you:

1. Where do you live currently?

2. What parts of the country are you willing to work in?

3. Do you have a family?

4. What is your age?

Atlas is a garbage employer in my opinion. I wouldn't worry about reapplying.

You have a couple of hickups with your experience right now.

The first one is not having your ATP.

The reason why the regionals are not pursuing you in my opinion is because you do not meet ATP minimums with your required time.

Here are ATP minimums:ATP Flight Time RequirementsTotal Flight Time1500 HoursNight Flight Time100 HoursPilot-In-Command (PIC)250 HoursCross-Country500 HoursInstrument Training75 Hours
If you have close to 3000 hours of total time than you should have at least 75 hours of actual instrument. If you do not have at least 75 hours of actual instrument recorded in your logbook(s) than you have been logging your instrument time way too conservative.

Try applying to all of those ATP sponsor companies with your correct hours and see how it goes.

I'm doubting any of them would question you about your hours, but if they did, just say that you made a mistake but these numbers are your correct hours and you have your logbooks in case they need proof.

Most of the training departments are horrible, so don't be afraid if you fail out of a couple of them. Use your experience and take it into the next training.

TOGALOCK

It depends on the area of the country they’re flying. If they’re flying mostly light piston in a sunny location moving people on short hops, it’s very possible it’s accurate. Modifying and adding time after the fact just to improve your application is risky advice. If paper logbooks are involved it’s *very* risky advice as that would involve crossing out and re-totaling pages. If the sudden uptick in time between application updates doesn’t raise an eyebrow, the highly modified logbook will.

I’m not trying to be a jerk when I say this, but this is possibly the worst advice to ever grace APC. Especially replying to an OP who has admitted to not taking things as seriously as they should have up until now. Failing out of a training program should never be considered an option. In the hiring environment of the past couple of years, it’s has been far more forgivable, but further in the past during normal and slow hiring that hasn’t always been the case. If you bumped into the furniture a few too many times in your first fast paced 121 training program and got let go, lots of time (physical time in the form of years, not just flight time.) and experience separating you from the failure/termination could make it more forgivable in an interview. Failing out of more than one 121 training program should be considered career ending in a normal hiring environment.

Also remember that those failures will follow you forever. Depending on how slow the hiring environment gets, even one failure could be disqualifying in future applications/interviews.

Failing out of a training program should never be considered okay or nothing to worry about.

dckozak

First off, welcome to Airlinepilot.com. There is a world of advice and opinion on these boards, and it will range all over the place. Definitely browse (troll) the 135 and 121 boards and not just company specific. Some good intel (and also some really bad) so read, take both over the top positive and negative reports/comments with a gain of salt and continues to ask questions.

You didn’t mention the 135 freight operators in your search. Ameriflight is one of the biggest and your quals probably fall very well inline with what they like. If anything, you are over qualified and that is a problem you may need to address, as they may feel you will be there so short a time it doesn’t pay to bring you up to speed. The other issue that you need to personally address (and possibly in an interview) is the drop in compensation you can expect, especially if you do take a 135 entry level position. The last suggestion I have. Why not look within 91 for a jet job? Crew environment, training closer to airline standards, all good to make you competitive in the 121 industry after you build more flight time.

followingdreams

I agree with this! It sounds like the crickets you are hearing is due to being bordeline OVER qualified! You basically need a begining position to build your lacking hours but everyone knows once you do that you are gone. Id tell you to find a buddy who needs to build hours also and do some night cross country flying under the hood. Once you reach ATP minimums, you will be good for companies like FLexjet or Netjets.

rickair7777

Um, don't do that. Try to identify that sort of bad training department before you take the job, and don't work there.

While DAL has hired folks with DUIs and multiple training busts recently that's not the norm and will not last forever (if it's even still a thing in 2024).

JohnBurke

I spent a lot of years flying under powerlines in formation in high winds and a host of othher things, without a tenth of instrument time or night time, because one doesn't do either instrument or night with that kind of flying, with a couple of notable exceptions.

Simply because one has years and many thousands of hours doesn't mean one has been doing a particular kind of flying. The original poster is seeking to transition to flying that involves instrument and night, but is asking for counsel on how to get there.

As others have noted, experience is the secret sauce; gain enough in each area to qualify for what you're seeking. if it's 121 flying, then flesh out the ATP minimums. Due to evolving industry hiring conditions, more experience is beginning to be better; airlines are ceasing to hire at the bare minimums, again. There is still plenty of movent in the industry, however, from utility to corporate to charter, etc. I regularly see flight test positions advertised, too (you indicated you have that; nearly all require either a former military test school or the civilian test pilot school, and so forth, but some call for test experience, as an alternate).

Most seek the road most travelled, and that's where you'll find the most competition. I've long been an advocate for the road less travelled, and there one will find the more unique flying with far fewer squirrels to fight over the acorns. To each his own.

NatGeo

Take advice on here with a grain of salt.

I think it is pretty obvious, that my advice was not to fail out of a training department on purpose, or to shop better offers while you are in training.

Let me elaborate, do your best, if it doesn't work out, don't take it personally. Go to the operation next door and fly there. The problem with the training departments in this day in age is that they do not get enough qualified people working in them with the salaries that the airlines offer.

I could blab on here about how someone is giving bad advice, but at the end of the day, I am a "man" and not some catty woman.

JohnBurke

So, passive-aggressive non-catty (wo)man, then, with risky counsel. Copy that.

Don't plan to fail. If you fail to plan, then you plan to fail. But tell me, why am I standing here with watermellons on my feet?

captjns

Of course... in the opinion of those who flunk and refuse to take ownershp their deficiencies. Now, to be fair, there are some training departments that may not be as good as others.