Lateral Bid dates
03-04-2007, 01:31 PM
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Specific example out of the contract on page 6 of section 24 under examples:
"Pilots 1-20 all awarded MemXXXCapt from the same posting. Pilot #18 is activated first because he needs no training (already having been an XXXCapt at another domicile).....Pilots 1-17 don't get passover pay when pilot 18 is activated because 18's activation did not delay their activations."
That is it in a nutshell, understanding of course that the real issue here is why did one guy get to keep his training date from the earlier posting instead of having it canceled like everybody else.
That is the only problem I see and I would like to have the union reps be a little more responsive to the questions that arise because of that.
"Pilots 1-20 all awarded MemXXXCapt from the same posting. Pilot #18 is activated first because he needs no training (already having been an XXXCapt at another domicile).....Pilots 1-17 don't get passover pay when pilot 18 is activated because 18's activation did not delay their activations."
That is it in a nutshell, understanding of course that the real issue here is why did one guy get to keep his training date from the earlier posting instead of having it canceled like everybody else.
That is the only problem I see and I would like to have the union reps be a little more responsive to the questions that arise because of that.
03-04-2007, 02:32 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 767 Cap
Posts: 1,306
Originally Posted by kwri10s
Here is what the contract says about passover:
Passover Pay Due To Junior Pilot’s Early Activation
In case of a junior pilot’s activation to a higher paying position out of seniority order, every senior pilot who meets the following prerequisites shall be paid as if he had activated in that higher paying position (passover pay):
i. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and
ii. the junior pilot’s award is from the same posting as the senior pilot’s award or from a subsequent posting; and
iii. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).
Activation Date is defined as "the date a pilot is released from training upon a certified completion of IOE or, if training is not required, then on a date specified for activation by the company."
The issue is activation date. If the Union position of lateral bids will activate to the line prior to anyone that required training off the same posting, then why would everyone senior not get passover. The 800lb gorilla in this line of questioning are the "nuggets." If they can activate directly to the line in MEM prior to those that need training then on the next bid, those that need training can watch their training dates slide while the nuggets fill the 11 FO holes. There are 50+ nuggets all with the ability to slide right back to MEM. I don't know how long 50 FOs would allow training slots to slide. But at a 12 FO per month training cycle, they just cost you 4 months of widebody FO pay. 6 per month...and you get the picture.
Instant activation of junior pilots into a new domicile out of order could potentially allow a perpetual train for ANC slide to MEM pipeline. For example, if I want to bid MEM 11 Capt but I cannot hold it, then I bid ANC 11 Capt. If a new bid comes out and I can now hold the last MEM 11 Capt slot with a training slot 18 months farther down the road. I know with this lateral slide policy, I will keep my first training slot for 11 Capt, however, I can slide to MEM immediately. Effectively bypassing everyone senior to me who was awarded the same slot on the same posting.
Just a line of thinking that has made me go Hmmm.??!!
Passover Pay Due To Junior Pilot’s Early Activation
In case of a junior pilot’s activation to a higher paying position out of seniority order, every senior pilot who meets the following prerequisites shall be paid as if he had activated in that higher paying position (passover pay):
i. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and
ii. the junior pilot’s award is from the same posting as the senior pilot’s award or from a subsequent posting; and
iii. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).
Activation Date is defined as "the date a pilot is released from training upon a certified completion of IOE or, if training is not required, then on a date specified for activation by the company."
The issue is activation date. If the Union position of lateral bids will activate to the line prior to anyone that required training off the same posting, then why would everyone senior not get passover. The 800lb gorilla in this line of questioning are the "nuggets." If they can activate directly to the line in MEM prior to those that need training then on the next bid, those that need training can watch their training dates slide while the nuggets fill the 11 FO holes. There are 50+ nuggets all with the ability to slide right back to MEM. I don't know how long 50 FOs would allow training slots to slide. But at a 12 FO per month training cycle, they just cost you 4 months of widebody FO pay. 6 per month...and you get the picture.
Instant activation of junior pilots into a new domicile out of order could potentially allow a perpetual train for ANC slide to MEM pipeline. For example, if I want to bid MEM 11 Capt but I cannot hold it, then I bid ANC 11 Capt. If a new bid comes out and I can now hold the last MEM 11 Capt slot with a training slot 18 months farther down the road. I know with this lateral slide policy, I will keep my first training slot for 11 Capt, however, I can slide to MEM immediately. Effectively bypassing everyone senior to me who was awarded the same slot on the same posting.
Just a line of thinking that has made me go Hmmm.??!!
If you are so concerned, you should write up a new passover pay section to present to the union for inclusion in the next CBA. Of course, you will have to make it cover every possible scenario of bids, training, aircraft aquisition, crew bases, and pilot hiring, and not give anyone of any seniority or crew position any reason to think they were being sc#$%d over by either the company or ALPA. If you can do that, You are my new skygod.
03-04-2007, 02:51 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
No need to apologize it is not me you are quoting. If the guy activated in ANC then no passover due. Makes sense. If a guy didn't activate in ANC after training with an ANC slot than passover should be paid and if the union signed off other wise they should answer.
03-04-2007, 02:54 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 500
Thanks
SNAFU, thanks for the reference. I did not see that as the section heading was for delayed training. That is a great reference. So for those thinking of bidding the 11 FO or 11 CA in MEM, we just need to remember that the ANC lateral moves WILL move prior to our training, regardless of seniority. So for every 6 ANC guys that are able to hold the seat on the posting, a IT or upgrade training slot will be slid by apx one month for CAs and 1/2 month for FOs.
03-04-2007, 03:05 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 500
Originally Posted by fdx727pilot
Apologies to FDXLAG, but I think he highlighted the wrong section. The key words are junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s). Assuming the 1st bid ANC pilot trains in his original date and activates in ANC, and then transfers to MEM, his transfer has no affect on the new second bid MEM pilots training date, which is set at the publishing of the posting award, and would not trigger passover pay. Also, unless the bids come one on top of the other, as recently happened, the junior man would probably spend a while in ANC before his transfer to MEM. Also, I disagree that all pilots instantly transfer.
If you are so concerned, you should write up a new passover pay section to present to the union for inclusion in the next CBA. Of course, you will have to make it cover every possible scenario of bids, training, aircraft aquisition, crew bases, and pilot hiring, and not give anyone of any seniority or crew position any reason to think they were being sc#$%d over by either the company or ALPA. If you can do that, You are my new skygod.
If you are so concerned, you should write up a new passover pay section to present to the union for inclusion in the next CBA. Of course, you will have to make it cover every possible scenario of bids, training, aircraft aquisition, crew bases, and pilot hiring, and not give anyone of any seniority or crew position any reason to think they were being sc#$%d over by either the company or ALPA. If you can do that, You are my new skygod.
I'm not a smart man, but it would seem that like everything else here a base transfer pilot should activate to the line in seniority order with everyone else off the same posting. Since base transfers seem to be easily accomplished why shouldn't the transfer occur immediately following the pilot senior to you activation. I will try to see if I can write-up a proposal for the union. Perhaps this can be fixed.
03-04-2007, 04:05 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: MD11 Capt
Posts: 152
Originally Posted by kwri10s
I guess my thinking about activation seems to be off. To me it seems that if a pilot junior to you is flying the line off the same posting then by default isn't your activation affected. .
03-04-2007, 04:26 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 767 Cap
Posts: 1,306
Originally Posted by kwri10s
I'm not a smart man, but it would seem that like everything else here a base transfer pilot should activate to the line in seniority order with everyone else off the same posting. Since base transfers seem to be easily accomplished why shouldn't the transfer occur immediately following the pilot senior to you activation. I will try to see if I can write-up a proposal for the union. Perhaps this can be fixed.
BTW - my info on posted transfer dates comes from https://pilot.fedex.com/general/post...er_dates.shtml
Unfortunately, as the training letter gets revised, the old one is deleted, so there is no way to compare original transfer dates to the original expected activation dates.
03-04-2007, 04:30 PM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
There are 3 conditions that ALL must be met. They are not an either/any of the three, ALL 3 conditions have to be met.
Everybody (who is confused) seems to focus on the last of the 3 conditions, the delay in training. That alone does not trigger passover pay.
Here are the THREE conditions again:
i. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and
ii. the junior pilot’s award is from the same posting as the senior pilot’s award or from a subsequent posting; and
iii. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).
ALL of these words are KEY words.
Everybody (who is confused) seems to focus on the last of the 3 conditions, the delay in training. That alone does not trigger passover pay.
Here are the THREE conditions again:
i. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and
ii. the junior pilot’s award is from the same posting as the senior pilot’s award or from a subsequent posting; and
iii. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).
ALL of these words are KEY words.
Last edited by SNAFU; 03-04-2007 at 04:51 PM.
03-04-2007, 04:40 PM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yes, as jdec141 points out, those guys in ANC have already activated (or should have, if they have not, then there is a problem, and that appears to have happened in at least one case, hence all the consternation) in their new crew position. That position would have been ANC MD11 FO. That is not the same crew position as MEM MD11 FO. So they are already trained and are simply transferring to another domicile. They aren't delaying training directly (although the company may have trained them first initially in order to fill a need in ANC, that is beside the point contractually) of anybody who is awarded the crew position in MEM.
Yes it may seem unfair that someone junior to you is making more money sooner and transferring into MEM before you can train, but it is perfectly in accordance with the contract.
If you want/need the big bucks at the earliest opportunity you need to bid ANC and be prepared to get stuck there if the merry go round stops.
Memories are very short, but just a couple of years ago hiring stopped for almost 2 years just like that. It can happen again, so if you do try to game the system and bid ANC be prepared to play it out until you can work the transfer on the next bid.
Yes it may seem unfair that someone junior to you is making more money sooner and transferring into MEM before you can train, but it is perfectly in accordance with the contract.
If you want/need the big bucks at the earliest opportunity you need to bid ANC and be prepared to get stuck there if the merry go round stops.
Memories are very short, but just a couple of years ago hiring stopped for almost 2 years just like that. It can happen again, so if you do try to game the system and bid ANC be prepared to play it out until you can work the transfer on the next bid.
03-05-2007, 12:18 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 500
Originally Posted by jdec141
Transfering from one Domicile (already activated there) to another domicile is not an Activation it is a Transfer. They are two totally different things.
Under the def of activation date: "The date a pilot is released from training upon certified completion of IOE or, if training is not required, then on a date specified for activation by the Company."
It seemed that a base transfer fell under this heading because training was not required. But as SNAFU pointed out the example says something else, so off we go. As long as we understand all the rules it is easy to play going forward.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
