Abx new hire
 

Hi all,
I just interviewed wit ABX, and got an offer. I see a lot of people are not happy with the company, but I have been searching for a lot of airlines, and it seems to me that no one is happy anywhere.
So please, I would really appreciate some good feedback on how life really is as an FO with ABX. I will be commuting. I know there is things people are not happy with, but there must be other things people are happy with to? I mean otherwise why would you be with them? The job market is so good, why would you not just go to a regional if no major is currently hiring you?
TIA!

Omni, Kalitta, FedEx/UPS/DAL/UAL/AA/SWA/Hawaiian/SunCountry all seem pretty happy, as does SkyWest and Endeavor. Also haven't heard complaints from ATI lately, but I would not recommend going there.

There are a host of reasons that I would suggest that you decline ABX’s offer of a job, but the most pressing reason, would be to help those currently employed at ABX, successfully achieve an attractive and fair CBA. If new people keep accepting job offers, under the current, sub-par CBA, it gives our management the idea, that they don’t need to make any changes in their current business model, which is making life miserable for those already flying here. If new people stop showing up for interviews/classes, maybe they’ll come to the realization that they need to “sweeten the pot” and come to an agreement for a better contract, in order to attract new pilots, and retain those already here. Your declining the job, could help contribute to the improvement in conditions for those currently here, and those that are hired post-contract. I might be able to understand your coming here, if jobs were hard to come by elsewhere, but as you pointed out, that’s not the case. Go somewhere else and help us out. Many of us are still here, because we’ve been here for 20+ years and are not able to voluntarily take the huge loss of pay associated with moving to a new company, not to mention, many of us are too old and fat to get hired anywhere else. So, do yourself and all of us a favor, and keep looking elsewhere for a job.

40+% of all new hires (May 2016-till now) quit. So, I hope U figure it out urself. Good luck elsewhere.

That should tell you a lot right there current employees saying go elsewhere. There is a lot of information on other threads but in my opinion here are the facts:

Jr manning happens all the time, you will be required to work on your days off. They always run short staffed.

Abx is losing flying most recently Atlanta. There are less and less line holders each month.

The last upgrades were well over a year ago and all the FOS who upgraded had 20 plus years with the company. There entire top half of the FO list has 20 years too. You will be waiting a long long long time to upgrade.

The union simply will not be caving to accept any concessions or ATI like contract. Management is ruthlesss here and this could be the final straw. They are going to continue to move flying elsewhere until it's all gone. And the pilots are prepared to retire or go elsewhere to work.

Reserve life is pure hell. There is no reserve "system" they can do what ever they please to you including 12 hour ready reserve at the airport with no limits, you will do alot of it! Be prepared to be on reserve for 2 years or more which will require a lot of out of pocket hotel rooms!

Even though they say they are paying for hotels and Per diem during training the union is filing a grievance and if successful you will pay for it on your own. Nobody here had it paid for and management simply doesn't care that nobody before you got it. Everyone else paid for it on their own and you will too!

Scheduling just cuts off trades when they feel like it with no recourse. Good luck on ever planning.

One bust in a type and it stays with you forever in your background check.

Why would you want to work for a place that doesn't care about pilots?

It's all threats, intimidation, no growth, out dated contract. The president brags about how many pilots he has furloughed in his career!

You said your going to commute? No KCM here and the commute clause requires you get to cvg 6 hours before you sign in with 2 flights off line. In the system you can do 1 flight but that's limited and losing flying doesn't help. Ask everyone commuting from atl.

Seriously there are much much better places to work. Every 151 is looking elsewhere and some senior folks.

Anyone who would come to a place that doesn't appreciate pilots must have trouble getting hired at a real airline!

Amazon yeah right they hate abx because of the strike. Even if it takes off just Google news articles they say it could be 2025 until cvg is built out and there is no guarantee abx will be here to do any of the flying when ATI is full of pilots with no self worth willing to do it for RJ pay!

Good luck being a new FO and you decide to take the job. You can sit there for 5 hours on the flight and stare at the panel. And when you get back you can sit for 12 hours in cvg on reserve and think why in the heck didn't you listen to peer advice!

Thank you! I appreciate the honest feedback with reasoning! I appreciate that you are actually willing to tell what is wrong instead of just saying "this company sucks and no one should come here".

.......and the company sucks and you should not come here. ATSG is now paying penalties to DHL per month for late departure arrivals. Maintenance is horrible. The Vice President of maintenance is blaming the pilots for writing up jets and the president recently told his employees that pilots work only 13 days a month and get paid $200,000 a year. He referred to us as greedy. Have a feeling those words are going to bite him in the third quarter.

I wish you the best what ever you decide. Look at jet blue and spirit if you can't get a major. They just rewarded their pilots with rates much higher than abx and ati and a 15% retirement plan not to mention defined growth plans with a real reserve system and trip trades done with a computer! Imagine that!

100% spot on!

^^^^^^and these are the “host of reasons” that I didn’t mention in my earlier post.....decline the offer and look elsewhere!!

What are you currently doing? We just gave away 5 of our airplanes from cam to amerijet. That tells you something about abx.. they are currently doing nothing to grow this company .. they are giving away all our assets to grow our competition.. the crappiest and most spiteful management i have ever worked with..

Because we're not all 25 years old, single, and able to live on less than $50K per year indefinitely.

Because if a major isn't calling after a couple years of heavy international flying here, why would a couple years of domestic Barbie jet flying look any better?

Because "flow" agreements take years to pay off...if they ever pay off.

Because quick upgrades only happen until the mainline carrier decides to shift a bunch of flying to a different regional carrier.

Because history has shown that hiring can stop at any moment without warning, and even if we never get a better contract, I'll be making more in the right seat here than in the left seat at a regional.

I was a little reluctant to write my opinion but here it is. First and most important thing I should say though is this. What makes me happy and what is important to me might not necessarily be the same for the next boy or girl. So this is simply my opinion.

I left ABX a while ago for a LCC best move I ever made. Living in base is always huge, but working for a company with normal work rules, normal computer systems where I can trade/bid/drop/pick up and not having to call after a trip to see if my days off tomorrow actually mean they are my days off (....) is worth its weight in gold. Plus sitting reserve at home for 4 days followed by 4 off is a joke. Yes, this happens as a line holder at ABX. You finish your trip at 4 AM and actually have to ask if you can go home. If no messages, you are good to go. And before some one jumps on this and says well there are ways to work it... Thats great, I shouldn't have to work it though. Day off means day off.

Now, let me start with the good.

Pilots:

You will be flying with some of the best people out there. And I mean this. I am still friends with many captains and FOs there (though most FOs left), and I can't remember one guy I didn't enjoy flying with. *which is easy as they are all old and asleep most of the flight :D. All joking aside truly a great pilot group. very vast majority of them good stick and rudder pilots and just pleasant to fly with.

Money :

Second year its ok. And thats on the concessiary contract. You will be JRM'd (D6 days) on your days off and will make good money because of it. You will be utterly fatigued (do you work for a regional right now -- take my word for it you have no idea what fatigued means) and you won't have time to spend it (not joking) but you will be making good money. You shouldn't have to loose years on your life though to make a good paycheck flying a 767...

Training department:

Very very good people. No BS, old airborne express haters are gone but still the old airborne mentality (in a good way). They make good pilots out of their students. Wont hold your hand but will teach you the 76. Good attitude and work hard and you have nothing to worry about. (just like any other training event -- shocker). 9 FTDs or so and Sim 7 or 8 is your ride I believe with with room for 2 extra but my buddy and I didn't need that and I will also say that by sim 5 you just want to do the ride so you can go home. Again, just like any other airline out there. IOE: they signed me off at 17 hours. It's an airplane. You get used to how high you are sitting quick. That for current 121 pilots I believe they can sign you off at 15. If it takes longer thats fine too I think they will give you 40? Don't know.

767:

Gentlemans aircraft. Happy I got signed off in both seats (have to for IRO ops) and just truly a joy to fly. ABX birds are getting older, and the last time the plane got updated was 1965. No PDC, Pack off because its to loud, No ACARS, paper plates, and scoring flights every 30 minutes or so. Yes domestic included. Didn't even know what that was till I started flying there. And also truly glad I learned how to call for clearance again. Miss my Cessna days. After you hand over the paperwork after a trip if you made one mistake (you know because its not like its day 12 and 4 AM somewhere over the Andes and your so damn tired you don't even know you last name anymore) they will call you out on this and make you correct it and fax it back for no reason. Im not making this up. Oh wait I was talking about the good. Ok well, I love the plane. Just hands down I love it. Joy to fly . You'll be too tired to enjoy it but on the rare occasion I was somewhat awake I truly enjoyed flying it and not one capt who doesn't allow you to turn everything off way out and fly the thing. Absolutely loved it.

Teamsters:

I am a very pro union guy and teamsters is by far the best group for ABX. They will protect the group at all cost. Makes ALPA look like girl scouts. At least I get a cool ALPA magazine these days.. I will say though that its sad that such a strong union is needed. Upper management are truly bullies. The guy right below Soapy has a good soul. But he still works for people who truly only care about money and will walk over your for every penny. Not understanding that this will bite them long term. Investing in your employees always yields long term results.

The not so good :

Day 1:

No KCM and no CASS till you are done with training. No KCM period. Not embarrassing at all at the airport.. The CASS is the bigger point though. For most (well when I got hired) this is their 3rd/4th/12th airline job. Most guys have families and even if you don't you deserve to go home on your days off. They give you some line on how the FAA is not ok with pilots who didn't pass their check ride being in CASS.. Interesting story, as every other regional pilot and their mothers get it on day one. It just shows a lot of disrespect to me. And after spending 2/3 months in the cornfields, take my word for it, you will want to go home. If you live in CVG or are considering the move, there are some nice areas there and like always, this will improve your QOL.

ABX birds :

Old old old old. Pack off for your ears, no IPAD no PDC no ACARS no absolutely nothing. Don't get me started, no this is not a deal breaker but it is indicitve for where the company is on safety and how much they care.

Flying :

Contract is being broken ad nauseam. day night transitions, 12 days reserve in CVG in the DHL hub illegal repo's at 6 am after you flew all afternoon before and sat reserve that night..

You won't know what fatigue is till you start doing this flying. Seriously. I remember flying the arc in Mexico City onto the VOR (hey someone has too when the CA is sleeping on his leg) and trying to wake the guy up next to me but he wouldn't wake up. I wasn't sure if he was dead. I thought I just went up one number in seniority.
Finally when I dropped the gear he woke up. Asked him if he wanted the landing on his leg :D. In hindsight I should have kept the plane. I stopped counting the amount of times waking up somewhere finding the ca and iro asleep. My record is 33 hours awake. 24 hours was normal I was literally falling apart. Do they still do that lovely Lima turn out of Miami at 2 am? its awesome when you came in the day before and try to turn your body around to fall asleep at 4 pm. Wont work.

summary :

I loved the plane. Pilot group.. Probably one of the best people FOs and Captains you will deal with. Captains will ask you on day 1 what is wrong with you why are you here, but they will welcome you with open arms and you will be part of the group.

Very very very bitter. Understandable. They once worked for a large well respected express carrier. Now its nothing more than just another ACMI outfit and that understandably hurts. Pensions got cut. Pay got cut. And now as mgmt is getting more money than they know what to do with, they won't share with the pilot group. When I got hired you still had to do a psych test online and fly the DC8 sim. Loved it. They took pride in who they brought on. Now they will hire you with a (or without just shut up about it) a pulse.

Ultimately what did it for me is the ancient work rules and the utter disrespect (I mean I have never seen anything like it) upper mgmt has for its pilots. I mean it doesn't compare to Jetblue or Frontier or Republic or SkyWest.. It doesn't compare to anything. Its literally spite.

I called my parents and told them listen im going back to the regionals as a street CA if I have too. I rather work 4 days trips living in base making 100K waiting for AA to call than doing this. You will make more money as an ABX FO for sure than a regional CA, however I was so unhappy I was done.

I used to do hiring at one of the larger regionals and used to tell candidates listen.. If the music stops tomorrow, would you be happy here? for me the answer was no. And I guess that is what it ultimately is all about, what makes you and your family happy? QOL is everything to me. Don't care about the plane or seat anymore.

What would have kept me at ABX ?

A normal contract with good work rules. Not one regional (never mind LCC or Legacy) out there with such arcade reserve and work rules. The place has so much potential, but upper management doest not care. At all.

So my advice to you is ask yourself this.. If it all ends tomorrow, could you see yourself at ABX the rest of your career? choose what makes you happy (which is different for me or the next pilot) and go with it.

As a final quick note: There are some really nice people working in the office. HR and scheduling have some lovely people working there who want to help you, their hands are tight. Don't take it out on them. They work a lot harder for less and only so much they can do when they are working for a not so much pro labor mgmt..

Very true. I have a couple of particular favorites. I remember both of them told me "welcome to the family" after I finished IOE. I almost feel bad ignoring their JRM calls when I'm off at home. Almost. And then there's at least one who is sort of spring-loaded to NO. So you wait until one of those others is working and call back for a better shot at the answer you want.

:)

I hear ya brother! Exactly what I used to do !

Just a couple points....you will NEVER upgrade at ABX...we have 20yr FO's who cannot upgrade to Captain. Second, you will see the unemployment line sooner rather than later...I would be suprized if you made it to 2nd yr. Reread some of the previous posts...ABX is downsizing and losing business. They have no new business on the horizon and are only hiring to wind things down..IMHO.

Naaaa...... Soapy and ATSG indicate we have tons of applicants. Rich Carrado when addressing the financial community stated that as fact. Would there be any penalties for misrepresenting company data in order to bolster stock prices? Just wondering.

Wow, so true! I have over 20 y ars here and it becomes a bigger **** hole everyday!

They might have tons of applicants...which if you can hired here you can get a job anywhere. What they will not have is business or airframes at the rate we are parking planes because we lost the flight or leasing them to someone else. So it would be 3 mos of buying hotel rooms and food....all while memorizing a bunch of crap you will never use. For what a 767 type? That is almost like paying for a DC8 type these days.

I'm already in my second year.

You're saying that ABX has higher standards than anyone else?

... repost from over a year ago.

For ANYONE considering ABX as a career choice, please heed the warnings. These are the good ol’ days in the airline industry, don’t settle for the lifestyle that ABX offers. The pilots at ABX are absolutely outstanding airman, but they don’t control your life like the callous and uncaring management you will work for. I gave up the chance to be #1 on the ABX list to be junior forever at a legacy carrier. And, I’d do it over a thousand times. Think hard about your choices.


A little over a year ago, I left ABX after 21 years for a legacy airline. That was a tough decision, but I'm 100% happy I had the opportunity to leave. What really pushed me out the door was the burden of angst that I seemed to carry even when I was at home. Keep in mind that there is a massive divide between the old crews and the new hires at ABX. Most existing crew members there have a couple of decades or more at the company. They remember what it was like to fly for a company that had integrity, goals and pride. The cargo world is devoid of niceties and extras that the pax carriers take for granted... but that's ok. That's part of the sacrifice and buy-in that it takes to do the work. However, for that commitment, there is the expectation that the employer is going to fight like hell to be a great airline and support its people (pilots). Airborne Express was like that.
Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, ABX Air lost it's moral compass. The path that management chose to take after DHL in 2003 has manifested into a toxic culture. The "old heads" will never forget the awful fall from grace that the company electively chose. For you new guys, congratulations for being hired into an international, heavy jet operation, that's valuable. But do yourself a favor and don't let it be your entire life. If you can avoid letting your work world taint your personal life, you'll probably be ok. You don't have the baggage of distrust and heartache that the old crews hold. Just beware, it's invasive, like a cancer. Go fly the big airplanes and see the world, but don't believe in promises and false hope. Maybe you can be the new guard that turns things around.

Just the opposite....you only need to be barely breathing to get hired here just like most places today. Why set the bar so low. Go elsewhere.

Wow...sorry to hear that. Alot of time wasted on an airline without a prayer of surviving.

Yeah pitiful. How about you ? How much time have you wasted ?

Over twenty in my case. All Nite is trying to do is open your eyes, and everyone else’s, so you all don’t make the same mistake we did. But you are too consumed with yourself and you are getting defensive.

I guess you won’t believe Nite until you see the first announcement about furloughs and captain surpluses. Which I believe is around the corner. Then don’t come crying to us.

So, you have an all you can eat buffet in front of you...and you ask if you should have "The Pile of Sh!t Special" for dinner?

ABX ???

Hahahahahaha,hahahahahahha,hahahahahaha,hahahahah. .!

WTH?

Wake up.

:(

Exactly.....

I am not waiting for an upgrade that will not happen. I also am not sitting reserve and buying crashpads and hotel rooms while eating out of my own pocket. I have the things you should have and could have elsewhere...like a retirement and profit sharing. If I didn't I would not be here. If they close the doors tomorrow it would not change my lifestyle at all. Like I have said before...the idiots at ATI will be working to fund my retirement. How about you..would you be scrambling to find work? If so you should not be wasting more time at ABX. If it's just a hobby for you or you just like to stay up all night to fly airplanes by all means stay.

Clearly, you don't think too highly of those of us on the lower end of the seniority list. Because if it was just that simple to get hired somewhere else, most of us would not be here. And I'll refer you to my previous post about why we don't "just go to a regional".

I do question why anyone would come here now or 2 yrs ago...we were yrs behind in negotiations and working under a concessionary contract which included no retirement for new hires... and a well documented management and pilot group hatred for each other. As far as thinking highly....most everyone I have worked with have been good guys. And because just as you said "if it was just that simple " management will most likely continue its destructive path. Why? They are just not able to figure how to run an ACMI carrier. Bidding on flying, staffing, working with a pilot group to try and get the most productivity from them without threats.. (that never work) is a total mystery to them. And like yourself ...pilots will continue coming here knowing that or not doing research and coming anyway.

We have 7.5% defined contribution to our 401k, which is better than any other ACMI or regional (as far as I know on regionals, not positive). Aren't you the one always griping about getting the facts straight? I have no interest in a pension, they don't do anything except blow up over time and I don't understand why people still want them at this point- With a couple of exceptions, they are basically a failed social experiment. Give me the money in a 401k and let it be mine, thanks.

Anyways, in regard to the original question. ABX has been dying in slow motion for over 10 years now, and the pilot group refuses to understand that their contract does not resemble an ACMI carrier in any way shape or form and that they are, in fact, an ACMI carrier. It is completely uncompetitive and inflexible in an industry that demands competition and flexibility. You don't have to like that, but it is a truth whether you like it or not. I won't even get into the hilarious political lack of self awareness and hypocrisy that is required by all the old ultraconservative trump lovers to somehow expect the union to deliver something completely out of step with the rest of the industry and cry foul when they get their ass handed to them over and over in court and the negotiating table and out-competed in the "real world" by pilot groups that are simply hungrier. That's fine, whatever. ABX got lucky and got a chunk of Amazon flying, but they ****ed that up too, and now DHL shrinks and continues to shrink and everyone chooses to stick their fingers in their ears and blame management. Believe it or not, ATSG is not just doing ok... they are thriving. And they are doing it without any cooperation from ABX whatsoever, while continuing to shrink us. We're not nearly as necessary as we arrogantly believe we are.

Whatever you think is "right" or "wrong", don't come to ABX. It is a dying cowboy, pointing the gun at its own head. We'll get a contract eventually (we're scoped into DHL, and while its shrinking and will likely continue to shrink, its still making money for a while), but unless it looks more like an ACMI carrier and is followed by a merger with ATI, this place will continue to dwindle into irrelevance. But the 'legacy' guys mostly don't mind that because they can milk it until retirement then watch it burn down out of spite. A lot of them will straight up tell you this, and I can't say I blame them, honestly. To be clear, not everyone thinks this way and its true what people say, despite some (in my opinion) really misguided hardheadedness, the group here is great to fly the line with and there is a lot to be learned here for anyone learning to fly a big jet. The place has a very rich, albeit poisoned, history. But, anyone under 50 is actively looking to leave, and there are plenty of places to go. There is no new flying on the horizon, in fact we stand to lose a big chunk of business soon (the day of reckoning keeps getting pushed back, but it will be gone eventually), and there is no reason to think the next DHL contract will bring more business. There could very easily be displacements here within a year, if not outright furloughs. Something else may fall from the sky or NAC may fold, leaving us the SAS business (There's no reason to think that will happen, but ABX has been saved by the bell several times now) If you want to be a part of what I'm describing, come on down.

"NAC may fold" now that's funny. Do a little research on the parent company. Anywho....everything you just said backs my post....why come here? Thanks. As far as the 7.5% contribution....its nothing. Industry standard is in the 14% range. Not sure what you mean about pensions getting blow up but the laws have changed after the United/Delta/USAir days. Assets are now directly tied to the pensions (read aircraft) plus funding levels and penalties in place for underfunding. Plus I am told ABX is funded to correct levels.Your 401k is yours? Wait until some non conservative politicians decide means testing will decide what is yours..its only yours when you liquidate your accounts, pay taxes and stuff the money in coffee cans in your basement. Iam not sure why people get upset if someone says we are more likely to fail than survive. As far as you being sure about us getting a contract...can you please PM me the winning Powerball numbers?

I think he said 7.5 was high compared to other ACMIs, not the industry as a whole.


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Jesus Christ, talk about driving my point home. Thanks for the assist.

And I specifically said there is no reason to think NAC would fail, but ABX has a way of being saved by random ****. That was the point.

And, argue all you want, our retirement currently leads the ACMI industry and you work for an ACMI carrier. The ACMI industry is littered with the carcasses of airlines that thought they were better than all the other guys and played hardball. ABX is just gonna be another one of em. I have a bridge to sell you if you think politicians are going to fight for your pension when the **** hits the fan.

I agree with you, anyone who comes here at this point is straight up foolish. However, we 151's signed up for a pretty promising Amazon development. Only to be thrown into a strike out of nowhere while ON IOE, which, if memory serves me correctly, not a single one of us voted on or knew anything about. The pay is good enough to allow us to be picky while we look for our next destination, so sorry if we aren't leaving fast enough for you. I assure you though, we're all leaving.

Still waiting for the lucky numbers....

Yeah, you and everyone else at ABX.

Those lucky numbers will never come...the doors will be chained shut first. But I will take your crystal ball lottery predictions...

Not one pilot here has recommended that you take the job. I can not recommend ABX either. It’s a toxic, shrinking airline. No one is happy here.

Stay where you are and wait for a better opportunity to come along.