I think most of us hate the ATI chicken$h!t$ pilot group who agreed to a horible scheduling rules, crappy Disabilty, low pay raise contract that is now the ATSG standard. And the scabs......
There is a reason we are using K4 plus instead of ATI for the high watermark.
Idiots....
Plus the furloughed pilots voted overwhelmingly for the concessionary contract to get their incredibly high DHL funded severance checks. You can't have it both ways!

I don’t blame those who went to ATI for work, I came to ABX for the experience just like those at ATI. While I would love to make a career out of ABX, the future is bleak. So I’ll do my time and move on. I’ll do my part to make it a better place for the next guy. I won’t chastise an entire airline group for the actions of a few.

And good for you....you came to ABX with plans to leave. Quite a few did not and the pr!@ks at ATI took a lowball contract when the whole world is getting more....and now ATSG/ABX management thinks for some crazy reason ABX pilots will take one in the tailpipe like ATI did.

Hate all you want. Like flattery, it'll get you nowhere.


So let me get this straight: ATI wasn't the ATSG standard when we were the worst airline and the lowest paid idiots on the ramp? But now that we are paid better than ABX (short of being baby-eating *****s or enjoying the benefit of unsustainable soft money, which we've never had, all when no one here "owns" anything) and work less (unless we want to), while never having to beg for a jump seat, own a crash pad, or an extra car, and, most importantly, raised the bar to a level no less than K4 (and Omni, who 1224 graciously decided to finally let vote on their own CBA only after the numbers behind our matching "low pay raise contract" were leaked), we're the new standard? Amazing how that works. And all that, despite that we don't have a FLEET of 747s (or 777s), and we do have a bunch of 757s.


Like K4 and like Omni, ATI has a true ACMI contract. It's what we do. It's imperfect. It's flexible. It addresses a dynamic atmosphere. Don't think for a second that K4+ wasn't our starting point. In fact, call it K4++. They were at it for a bit longer than we were, but they fought the good fight, and set the bar. We're on our third CBA, rising out of ashes. We scored huge gains compared with our previous CBA. THAT's ALL that's important. We raised the bar significantly for us, and kept the bar high for the next guys. That's ABX and Atlas. And at the same time, we've managed to NOT alienate our customers. We've managed to NOT alienate our mechanics, our loading crews, our admin folk, our van/limo drivers, our hotels.


And it's really interesting that MOST of you all here hate us. "MOST" of you constitutes what, exactly? About 10 of you? I can tell you this: 100% of you who enjoy our jumpseats don't seem to share your disdain. Or are you calling your own out as hypocrites? Again, funny how that works...

You all took a lowball dog$hit contract in these times.....sellout...

Keep wearing those blinders to bed, the shower, with family, friends, etc. They're obviously serving you well in your perfect world.

b707 guy,

ATIs contract is not even in the same ballpark as K4, and OMNI. You all bought a sh@t sandwitch with the new contract at ATI. It sure as he11 won't help ABX or Atlas with their negotiations. ATI fd the entire sector of the industry going forward!

My familiarity with Omni's contract is based solely on their publicly-released source. But, obviously, you've studied all three CBAs cover to cover. So do enlighten me with what constitutes your ballpark.

my ballpark is equal or better than K4, or Omni. Based on a publicly released source you are still less than by a good deal.

Yeah, I thought so. Provide details, or give it up now. I'll be happy to refute, corroborate, all-out support, or disprove anything you say that puts us in a different league.

Well I am at Omni and K4 is equal to what we have I have a friend that's an FO at ATI and I have that bit of inside info. you are the one that stated you are using publicly released info. and based on that alone you are behind. based on what I know of my contract you are WAY behind!

good day

So, in other words, you don't have a clue. Or, you have a mis- or uninformed clue. Which is probably worse. Please put your ATI FO friend in touch with any of his reps for some clarification. Believe me.

Sellouts and scabs...

You know what I am not going to *****foot around about it! The pilots at our sister airline ATI that crossed our picket line are scabs and should be treated as such along with JV and MW. The ATI pilots that didn’t cross our line and walked with us I applaude. Pretty much as simple as that.

Careful.. you do know ATI just negotiated your next contract. If and when (hopefully not at all) ATI and ABX become one airline, whats left of the ABX pilot group will be raising gear for MiniV.
Regarding this so called "strike", funny how there's no photographs of this so called picket line, none of these "scabs" are listed on the scab list and there's no names of the pilots who supposidly "crossed" your picket line. Remember ABX and ATI are separate airlines, backed up by a decision from the NMB.
Half of the pilots who were not on duty that day didn't even know about all this drama until a day or two later. It almost seems like you guys intentionally kept your "strike" a secret from every other CVG pilot in hopes of other pilots continuing to fly their trips because they didn't have knowledge of this "strike". Usual strike protocol was not followed, there was no cooling off period etc. How difficult would it have been for your Exco to email the ATI pilot group to inform us of what was about to happen.
Besides, ABX has no freight of their own, it's all DHL/Amazon--separate companies. ABX operates their own seperate routes from anyone else. ATI did not fly freight on dedicated routes that was normally flown by ABX. ATI didn't fly struck work, ATI didn't take any pilot jobs from ABX, no ATI pilots were hired to replace striking ABX pilots, every ATI pilot is a union member (not even Teamsters)
Here's your logic. If United Airlines strikes, all the other 6 passenger airlines operating LAX-DFW will have to strike too, otherwise they would all be scabs because they're flying displaced United passengers. Struck work. That includes American, Spirit, Compass, Delta, Skywest.

Occhams Razor, how much money can the average first year FO at ATI gross? At K4, with little to no O/T, just doing the normal schedule, a first year FO can expect to gross around 130k. With a good amount of OT, 150k+.
I've been told at WGA they can expect around 96k.
I think this metric cuts through the bullcrap and gets to to meat of the subject.

130k first year? I am very curious. Can you please explain how they get paid that much. First year is $107 hr with 64 hour guarantee (= $6,848). Then maybe an extra $700 for per diem (700+6848 = 7548 per month). That is only for 10 months. first two months is training pay (600 per week. $2400). So:

2 training months $2400 x 2 = $4800
10 flying months $ 7548 x 10 = $75480
First year estimated is $80,280.

My calculations are $50k off from yours. Obviously there is something I am missing. Can you please explain?

we'll NL3 is taking about what guys are actually making today
there are some hungry FO's out there
first off your perdiem is off - closer to 1300 per month
if the guy works a bunch of OT more like 1600+


and no one gets just 64 hrs - just flying regular 16 days average Joe can expect 85-100 hrs - if your really hungry for pay, I've seen guys do 170 pay hrs in a month

I'll give you a for instance - they had a trip going today CVG-ANC-ORD. Double crew flying time 13.5 - pay for the trip would be 28.2
and you would be gone from home less than 48 hrs

that's how it done

Scab.........

Thankfully JH does not want the one airline option...its not about profit and making money, never has been its about him beating his chest and saying... I am the little man in charge we will do it my way at all costs if it ruins us..as far as working under the ATI horible contract...if furloughs happened with the preferential hiring in the contract and ABX pilots flooding ATI seniority list....the contract and representation would not be around long. Either way most at ABX could care less....unlike you idiots, we have been working for the last 3 decades or more with full retirement...it just does not matter. Scabs working for scabs..

I hardly worked any overtime my first year, maybe six days. I only had one month where I was paid 64 hours and that was because I was lost in the system. Every other month working within my 16 day footprint I would average 90 hours. By the end of the year(Jan 1st to end of December), my income totalled over 130k gross including perdiem which was around 1100 a month. Most people report the same experience, and those who take full advantage of OT can easily see 150 to 160k. We are a happy pilot group.

How about comparing apples with apples. ATI (ABX, too, for that matter) has exactly zero true wide body long haul business. And, at least for now, K4's 767 business is very similar to ATI's. So, how many K4 767 pilots are breaking 64 hours per month without working a day off?


Couple of factors affecting first year pay.


K4 is on DOS+1, and will be on DOS+2 before long. ATI is on DOS. Advantage: K4


K4 uses a training pay plan. ATI starts at full pay from day one.
Advantage: Long term (1 year) K4. Short term, ATI, unless your personal financials can tolerate training pay for a few months.


Life after OE.


K4 has 14 days off minimum out of 30 (max of 16 days on). ATI has 12 days off minimum out of 28 (also a max of 16 days on, but in a shorter "month").
Advantage: Slightly to K4, on paper. But ATI has at least one, and in many cases, two, travel days included in those days on for the non-reserve lines of time. So if you want to look at it from an availability for duty viewpoint, ATI really has 13 or 14 days off, depending on where you live versus what/where you bid to fly. That'sa minimum! Before lines that have 13 or 14 actual days off, and, yes, there are quite a few. On top of that, if an ATI pilot works on one of those travel days, which, again, isn't one of the minimum 12 days off, he gets paid for it. So, without working a single day off, an ATI 757/767 pilot can make up the difference between a K4 pilot's 767 pay. That's today.



Longer range.


K4 offers an advantage from the start, thanks to marginally higher rates, and that they will be on DOS+2 before ATI hits DOS+1, and the likelihood of being assigned the 747 (a prize in itself for many) with pretty much guaranteed overtime.


But if you don't want to spend your life on the other side of the planet, or if you generally prefer domestic or short overseas trips, or whatever your personal needs call for, then life as an ATI 757/767 pilot is pretty much an exact copy of a K4 767 pilot. At least for now. Who knows what the future holds? As I said in another post, better in some ways, not so much in others. But when you iron out the wrinkles, we're on the same level.


And in the end, apples to apples, ATI reaches real-time pay parity with K4 after our DOS+3.



Right now, today, all else being equal, if I were applying to both airlines, and was offered a job at both with similar class dates, and could deal with a 747 life, then K4 wins easily. Right now. The biggest difference is that Connie creates his future. The rest of us seem to be saddled with being able to do what the present provides. Blunt enough?


ATI has managed to survive over the years, despite its best efforts otherwise. Nothing is guaranteed. But if we do keep chugging, pictures of life in the 767 at ATI and at K4 are nearly interchangeable. I'm not trying to sell anyone anything. There are warts and silver linings at both places. The only ones who can't and won't see that are the handful of noisemakers here.

Anyone can make great money with OT but being gone an entire month from family is not fun. How do you fly that many hours in a 16 day period when the legal part 121 allowance is 30 flight hours in a 7 day period?

Thanks. That's a great breakdown. Seems like the ATI guys are the only ones here trying to educate. Telling.

Just out of curiosity...what is there to educate? You want to know more about the K4 or ATI contract (or current book ABX)?? Download one if you are a member of 1224 or ALPA and review it. Else ask a buddy for a copy, nothing is top secret or requires educating....unless you're unable or unwilling to figure it out yourself.

Overall 707's post was good although it has inaccuracies (or maybe a better way to say it would be "different view") depending on what angle you are coming from.

Just for a simple example..days off.
K4 - 14/30 (14*12=168 off/year) ATI - 12/28 (12*13=156 days off/year) [ATI has a 13 bid cycle/year for those who do not know]. A 12 day difference or what could be a half a month or more of work, again based on view. We all know individualistically, i.e. position/seat, vacation, where you live, luck, etc.... one's mileage will vary. Not meant to be pro or con, you be the judge of that.

Interesting how the thread drift is massive...and the professionalism displayed....well, I'll say no more except it is entertaining! :rolleyes:

Ok, so when was the next upgrade class at ABX again...(lol)

Look I agree that I like my days off - that wasn't the question was it?

the question was how do you make that much money?


FYI K4 is supplemental - there is no such thing as 30 in 7
we always fly with 1CA and 2FO's at a minimum
which means that we can do 120 hrs in 30 days

also understand that we get a fair amount of soft time
unlike some others we get paid to position and paid for reserve

so ya in 16 days its easy to get 100 hrs pay
85 hard time 15 soft
ya know many of our legs are 10 hrs +
doesn't take many of those to add up

Nothing I said is inaccurate, so I'll go with the "different view", or perhaps, "could have been more complete" approach. ;)


If, for instance, you live near CVG and can hold the CVG DHL lines (there are only 8 lines, but they usually tend to go more junior), you'll enjoy 14 or 15 days off out of every 28, depending on whether or not you're on a split line. That comes to between 182 or 195 days off for the calendar year, depending on whether you bounce between "normal" and split lines throughout the year.


A lot of our Amazon lines start in ABE, DFW, ONT, SMF, or SEA. A few in TPA or PHX. Of those, many end in the same place that they started. Some end elsewhere. But, either way, if you live near any of those cities, you'll also generally enjoy 13 of 28 days off, or 169 for the year. More in many cases.



As far as downloading available CBAs... reading someone's unfamiliar CBA and being able to figure out how it actually works are two different animals. Talking with someone about how it works in real life is generally helpful in getting "educated". On the other had, someone who comes here to spew misinformation because someone doesn't want to be correct and does want to create a negative impression is intolerable (not aimed at you at all, flyr!).

Taking a job in the ACMI sector thinking that current routes will have you laying over at home is foolish. Routes are constantly shifting. If you want to be home every night....work for Allegiant and move to your base.

Absolute truth. Pick your poison.

A few things, FAJ.

1) ABX 1224 crafted the concessionary contract not to undercut Astar, but to be more able to get additional non-DHL flying and thus mitigate the effect of SEVERE DHL downsizing and furloughs. That was a key driver.

2). Not all of the nifty 50 gorged themselves on open flying.


In retrospect, I'm not sure how much, if any, good that did as ABX management has not been very adept at drumming up non DHL/Amazon business. But there it is. :(

Re Post #41 (nfd)- A few years ago, I asked a key architect of the 09 contract how he was doing.(He was a furloughee.) He replied that he's getting his top line choices, but that it really didn't matter much as the lines mostly sucked. Oh, the irony of it.

B707 FAJ thx!

When you break out cba down like that it compares much better to K4, Omni...

Sad, everyone on here bashes ATI. Our pilot retention says it all though. Granted we’ve recently had some senior captains leave but its a very rare event.

Only one senior Captain left and got hired at FedEx- the others retired.

What does any of this have to do with ABX upgrade times..

Absolutely nothing. But you already knew that since you've been actively apart of the abx vs ati discussion in this and other threads. :)

Thank you.....now maybe it can get back on topic

As far as retention goes...you probably don't have a actual figure on how many are trying. Also stamped with ATI on the resume is a real turd in the punch bowl...as far as hoping for an interview elsewhere. I can't imagine anyone in hiring saying "oh boy its ATI get em in quick"

ABX Upgrade Times
 

ABX just put out a bid for captain upgrade... with only one captain slot available... business is booming!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

They will probably have to hire extra office staff for all the applications that will flood in now.

I heard somebody say that the last recruiting ad they saw came from a recruiting company, so they may already have taken care of that.

Head of the class!