That's graduate level, I'm not there yet.

I think the company's negotiators are guffawing through clouds of cigar smoke right now.

It'll be many a moon before they see a pilot group as united as last year. Not after this. As Albie says, this transaction is "zero sum." A transfer of wealth from one group to another. No way will we trust each other after this.

If the company doesn't want to pay to train someone, they will have to pay them passover, IF there is retroactivity for the ropes, and IF these guys bid to upgrade. Kind of a win win for all of those on the seniority list, rope and non-rope alike. Otherwise, they train the guys and we get what we are b!tching about. Are you saying they will come to us and say, "we won't train these guys if you guys swallow PBS"?

Because then we'll have guys that won't want passover and will b!tch about not getting to actually sit in the CAP seat. Don't think it'll happen? Had a guy in my upgrade class that had less than year before turning 60. Company offered him passover, he whined and cried to JL and went to upgrade (He was also one of usual DP takers as well! But that's a different thread!;) )

User CP>Edit Options>scroll down to Thread Display Options:Number of Posts to Show Per Page
;)

Makes following threads easier than having to scroll through numerous pages. I may have to reset to 50 per page after this thread! :D

"If the company doesn't want to pay to train someone, they will have to pay them passover, IF there is retroactivity for the ropes, and IF these guys bid to upgrade. Kind of a win win for all of those on the seniority list, rope and non-rope alike. Otherwise, they train the guys and we get what we are b!tching about. Are you saying they will come to us and say, "we won't train these guys if you guys swallow PBS"?"

Sorry for the confusion MD. See, I told you I wasn't one of the smarter guys on this board.

What I was trying to say is if there is no bid for those covered by Age 60 retroactivity to get a front seat on, the company may agree to an MEC request for a displacement bid via an LOA in exchange for something like PBS so they can, as the MEC keeps saying, hold what their seniority allows. As I said, unlikely but I don't know what the MEC will do without our input next. If there is a normal bid out for them than what you said is correct.

Gotcha! Hope we never see something like that! But then again....

You call that unity??? Were we at the same company last year? The company's negotiators have been guffawing through clouds of cigar smoke since October. They have now added champagne and dancing girls (brown ones at that).

Some observations:
1) Obergrupenfurher Webb doesn't care about what the membership thinks, about anything, on any issue, period! (unless we agree with him)
2) The MEC is happy to have their trips bought for attending a union meeting and have never opposed DW on any issue.
3) "Was passed by the MEC unanimously" means, we always do what DW wants because we are happy to have our trips bought by those dues paying dopes.
4) I'm nostalgic for Frank Fato and Mike Weiland! (how sad is that?)
5) Benedict Arnold was not an MEC chairman, rumors to the contrary not withstanding.

In reference to the "message from the mec" email tonight, I find it appalling that they are trying to spin this by using the "Overwhelming majority of fdx pilots do not favor a change to age 60", but then go on to say, "66% of pilots alpa wide want our union to influence the change if change is imminent."

OK, FDX pilots don't want it by an overwhelming majority, and 66% of ALPA-wide pilots (non-fdx) want the union involved if it's going to change. Excuse me, but if FDX pilots don't want it why is our MEC pushing forward with other ALPA-wide statistics?

As for retroactivity, "but we also know that protecting seniority is the right thing to do for the right reasons", screw you Dave. Did you not shutdown and settle (for nothing I might add) our recent grievances about training and transferring pilots out of seniority? Let me guess, if seniority is so sacred, why did a bunch of us junior guys get screwed? That one cost me 30 grand, I'm not going to let you stiff me again.

Listen to your people Dave, they're trying to tell you something.

zman,

I agree with you 100%. Lets recall these SOB's.....

Maybe Big Dave swapped retroactivity for those plum A-380 pay scales?

I'd like to see the recall take shape.

Also, the greatest thing that could happen out of this whole crap-sandwich:

Have the company pay all the 60 and over's passover pay, which keeps them in their SO seat so they a.m. hub turn for the rest of their career.

A year or two of that should convince them to retire.

So you really think that all of these very senior, over 60, plow-backs (like myself) will actually do night hub turns for a year or two before we're convinced to retire? You should maybe think that through a little more. We do night hub turns when it's convenient for us, otherwise, we fly what we want. I'm not bragging here, I'm just stating a fact of the system.

My question is this: if they keep me in the back seat, while paying me passover pay for the left seat of the Mad Dog, will I be asked to tip the limo driver?;) Also I'm wondering how our 727 captains will like being the second highest paid crewmember on their flight. Personally, when I'm flying with a f/o who is junior to me, I always offer to give him some money for the limo tips.

If the company doesn't allow the over-60 guys to return to our previous seats, but instead pays us passover pay, the average earnings of the FedEx pilot group (as a whole) will go through the roof. I wonder what implications that fact will have at the next contract negotiations?

So here's the deal: if the company doesn't allow me to go back to the left seat of a widebody (assuming the age is upped to 65), but instead pays me passover pay for that seat, I don't expect to hear one word about this phenomenon from any of you guys who are offering this method, as a reasonable alternative to actually following the seniority system.

Retirement planning...maybe you should have thought that through a little more...

[

My question is this: if they keep me in the back seat, while paying me passover pay for the left seat of the Mad Dog, will I be asked to tip the limo driver?;)

Why start now?

Personally, I always thought the S/O should get paid more, so that'd be cool by me. ;) Second, I don't think a 727 Captain would care if he was the second highest paid guy on the crew, as long as he was still getting Captain pay. Good for everyone on the crew, I'd say. I'm sure he'd rather be the second highest paid guy on the crew at narrowbody Capt pay than be forced back to the F/O seat.

P.S. Are there any F/Os that are senior to you??:D And it's cool that you offer to pick up thier tips also.

Guys, I can’t believe the anger that has been flowing from the “junior” guys in this crew force.
Every one of you, one day has the opportunity that each of us had when we were hired; The potential to be a “senior” Captain.
Have you condemned the guys who didn’t retire at 55 in the past who were “taking your seat”?
You guys need to step back a few paces and listen to yourselves. This is a crew force that was hired under the seniority system, which flourishes under the seniority system and who lets you progress under the seniority system. Do you really want to shoot the system that gives you a “future”?
By the way, I don’t want to work a day past 60, but wouldn’t you all like the ability to determine your own future, without the government telling you what to do?

You're leaving out a few facts there. In addition to the seniority system, we were all hired under age 60 something that has quite a bit to do with the potential to be a senior Captain one day. However now a few people who quietly and obediently benefited from said system for quite some time want to change the rules before it's their turn to go and it's the junior guys who need a lesson in what's fair? Please. 55 was never the legal age so that's a non sequitur b/c no one could reasonably expect people to retire then just like early medicals. As far as the determine your own future stuff that won't happen in a capital intensive government regulated industry-ie the business we've chosen. We can however help do a magnificent job of shooting ourselves in the foot and then spend the next 30 years complaining about our mistake(s). We are well on way to that. This issue won't be solved here, but it ain't gonna blow over either despite what the calamari club in Herndon thinks.

42go - if you're 40 you can't assume you'll be around at 60. It's that simple. There's a 25% chance you'll medical out, your company may go bankrupt, your company may move planes offshore, a war may start, whatever.

The best job in the nineties was UAL. PLENTY of guys I knew left good jobs for a chance of those widebody captain rates and that pension. After all - it was the largest airline in the world, right? What could go wrong?

This industry has about a 5 year event window. Beyond that anything goes. I don't want to hear about from 60 to 65. I want to hear about the next five years.

If you were 40 right now, in the right seat (but bidding NB captain at 100%), raising kids with a stay-at-home wife, you'd be as mad as the rest of us. Tell me I'm wrong.

Wow. The vocal minority is in a rampage.
It seems advocation of an MEC recall, destruction of unity, corporate knowledge, and leadership is in order.
Then we'll run to DC and beat our heads against the NPRM/congressional wall.
I don't quite understand this strategy.

Mark,

You're more of an idiot that I thought previously, if you actually think that I'm staying around because I can't afford to retire. After a career in computer management, a 34 year military career, and 17 years here at FedEx, it's not a problem. I'm still on my first wife and still in the same house we bought 20 years age, with no mortgage, so (maybe even you can figure this out) it's not about the money. I don't know about you, but I love to fly. Always have, and always will.

I was tipping those guys when you were in diapers.:D

Burn the house down
 

What is going on here is the pitfalls of "open discussion" within a "democratic" institution. :rolleyes: While I don't agree with the reality of whats transpiring with the age 60 debate, I'm more appalled by the "burn the house down" conflagration that's seems ready to lynch the FDX MEC leadership over their leadership. Does anyone here, proposing to recall any ALPA officer, intend to take thier place?? Will they put in the hours required to run and lead this crew force on any issue other than stonewalling the age 60 issue?? Everyone is entitled to an opinion regarding any issue in our union and the leadership should be held accountable to its membership. The question is is our leadership failing to look out for the best interests of all it members, and if not why not??
I think if the junior varsity would spend less time ranting on this BB and questioning/debating the principles involved in the how and why of their decision making process, maybe they would better understand how thier interests are being served by the elected leadership on FDX ALPA.
This discussion about tearing down DW is juvenile and lacks a coherent plan or reason. There are a lot of issues affecting your career other than whether a bunch of geriatric pilots shorten their retirement while (minimally) impeding your career progression. If this fight is that important to you, take it to the people who are in a position to affect it, the FAA and your congressmen.

Is it wrong to stand up and voice your opinion of what you believe to be wrong? Here's what wrong with me, and I don't think I'm in the "vocal minority"

1. Dave Webb is going against the "overwhelming majority" of FDX pilots.
2. Dave Webb has done this before, which is unacceptable.
3. By proactively declaring that the union will fight for seniority sounds noble, but in reality is a joke.
3a. He based this opinion via a bogus invitation only poll, not a union vote, which is wrong.
3b. You're right, seniority is everything. But there are quite a few of us who had the union stand behind the company when they violated OUR seniority rights. Where was Dave Webb and his "doing the right thing" then?
4. I blame the ALPA leadership for NEVER training our new hires on the "read between the lines" of union rules. Everyone sits and bashes new hires for taking DP's, but when you learn of what a DP is 2 years later, well that's plain wrong. Another example of screw the junior guys.
5. It's a bad feeling when you feel like it's you vs. the company. It's even worse when you feel like it's you vs. the union.

I'm sure you don't care as you are on the other side of the fence with this issue. But, considering our union's behavior, there seems to be a growing track record of going against it's members on alot of different issues. Maybe soon, you'll be one of the affected ones and your arrogrant f_you attitude will change. Hmm, maybe Open Skies or cabotage. Only time will tell.

Junior varsity, screw you. Oh please tell me mighty Don, when do I get to tryout for the varsity team???

Arrogant prick.

If the shoe fits :p

Great Post, Captain.

Rolling your eyes at the "Democratic" nature of our union. Bet you don't roll your eyes when your pet issues are handled the way you like.

Look out for everyone's best interests? What? When you have an issue where the membership is divided that is impossible. You know that right?

Great look down. "If you would just look at it MY way you would realize the truth." Just great.

So an attack on DW is wrong. Juvenile? He's not king. He is elected by elected reps. When the voters are unhappy they get someone else in there. How is that juvenile? Oh yeah, its not what you like.

Your last statement takes the cake. It should read "find someone who CARES about your issue"

One thing I can tell you--Us junior guys don't want ALPA or DW to have any influence on the legislation as they will only lobby for retroactive changes. Congress, if left alone, will keep/make it prospective. Any smoke and mirrors aimed at the "juvenile" majority will not work with this snot nosed kid. I don't think ALPA will get a greater say or need a greater say by backtracking on our over 60 policy. I'd like to get a bumpber sticker that says "Keep ALPA out of age 60"


Your argument is arrogant assuming all differences of opinion are due to youth, inexperience and impetuous thoughts. I guess the MD CA group includes the thoughtful members of our union and everyone else needs an education to learn the right way to think. (Sarcasm)

If you want to reduce ALPA's impact in Washington DC, then DUMP THE PAC!

$$$$ speak louder than words

Sure for DW's W2 I'll throw my hat in the ring ...


Vote for MaydayMark ... he'll fight for the under 60 crowd :D

And to make FoxHunter and JetJok Captain of the "blue room" service truck! Vote for MaydayMark!

I understand the emotion here. But don't let emotion steer your anger away from the real facts. ALPA wasn't lobbying for the change in age 60.
If ALPA does in fact change its position, they still won't be Lobbying for the change, they will be lobbying to hopefully have an input in the language.

They might be forced to lobby for any potentail IRS changes which might come afterwards. Lets face it, Retirement issues are the biggest threat here, not seniority. Realize it isn't just the very JR guys who take a hit, we all take the same percentage hit if the law changes. To this point we might disagree.

One thing I think we can ALL agree on is we do NOT want to see our retirement benefits reduced.

So go ahead and DUMP your PAC donoations, who else is looking out for you in Washington?

Realize we still have many negative things looming on the HILL.
Pension Reforms
Open Skies issues
License harmonization (which ought to scare the hell out of everyone that hase more than 10 years left.
And yes Age 65 implementation.

Dump the PAC,, yeah you'll show em

You DO understand that flying and working are not the same thing, right? I too love to fly, and plan to fly until I die. I just don't plan on WORKING until I die, despite Fred's fondest wish that I do so.

Get a Cub - Mentor some deserving kids - Give something back. Something along those lines.

-Frater

RedeyeAV8er:

My statement above was directed towards to Gunter's following comment:

"Us junior guys don't want ALPA or DW to have any influence on the legislation as they will only lobby for retroactive changes. Congress, if left alone, will keep/make it prospective."

I agree with you on many of your points, however if a person, on whole, wants a "say" in the proactive vs retroactive decision, the only choice of action is withholding PAC monies. Our MEC leadership has chosen to follow it's own lead. Do you think ALPA National will listen to our (the membership's) arguments? No, I think not. The system is setup so National listens only to our MEC Chair as he sits at the Executive Board. He is supposed to represent us. Our Chair has already told us what he intends to do and a majority of the membership appears to be at odds with his decision.

Short of a complete cleaning house of our union leadership, what other avenues of comment or influence is available to us. I've talked with my LEC rep, the Comm Chair and had numerous emails with the Vice, I don't see any potential for a change in their position.

All of the negative things looming on the HILL will still be lobbied by ALPA, whether we pull our monies or not. I'm a realist enough to believe any monies dropped as a result of DUMPING THE PAC would have only a slight impact on their bank account and lobbying schedule, but it is still the one aspect of this union I have complete control over. Stop/Start....all with a stroke of a pen...

Thanks for the comment

yeah...OK!!!!...go buy a cessna....and you are an engineer...you are not flying!!!!!...just taking a newhires seat...please go get a life..you had your time

I'm so glad the less senior pilots have you as their advocate.

deleted by me

So you don't think calling members in good standing "junior varsity" is being an arrogant prick?

Good Timing
 

Does anyone else think that it is a very odd coincidence that all this came out shortly after we were supposed to watch the "violence in the workplace" video?

Maybe, maybe not. As I learned a few pages ago, a less inflamatory choice of words is usually a good thing. Also, Zman seems to have a history of "ready, shoot, aim," so, since I disagree with you on this issue (which probably will get me called names,) having him in the forefront just makes those in opposition such as me, that much happier.

You make a solid point about the reality/difficulty of a recall-of course that was already brought up several pages ago by a couple of the junior varsity members you speak of. But in case you didn't see it here goes: a recall is next to impossible because it can only be done by the MEC which at least on the surface is showing complete loyalty to DWebb. You'd have find a few MEC members willing to recall, find appropriate candidates to replace the others including Webb, and establish an effective and cohesive grass roots plan to discredit the MEC members who support Webb to get a recall motion successfully approved for even a vote. At an airline this big, my guess is that it would take 6-8 mos. of ground work minimum and that's if you are focused and motivated from the jump off. That's probably lowball considering the low local population in our largest domicile, reaching the hinterlands would be harder and all the incumbents would do is pack each recall motion meeting with local MEM pilots who support them. What I just wrote is reality, but probably is a little too dirty and political feeling for the masses around here-something that the politicians who accept ALPA positions know all too well. That's why Webb can say things like if you loses his job over this so be it. I seriously doubt the entire MEC is firmly behind what is going on here, but the dissenters are likely outnumbered and are not about to stick their necks out for any kind of opposition when they don't have the guns to pull it off. Appear unified and save your bullets for another day.

Capt. Zman is right about better education from the union being needed, but it ain't just the newhires or the junior. There are plenty of senior types on here and in the system who don't know much about the machinations of ALPA at both the local and national level. Alot of the junior varsity team has been around the block more than you give them credit for and the rest are sharp and tend to be quick learners if you give them the info. Ever consider that part of the reason that they are so mad at ALPA is that they've seen this movie before and the popcorn isn't tasting any better this go-round?

As far as taking it to Washington ourselves, that's a silly argument. We pay ALPA to do that for us because a collective voice is stronger than an individual one when it comes to lobbying, but that voice must be carrying the message that the majority wishes for for it to work. Again you make some good points that are lost among the junior varsity and the woe is me 'geriatric' pilots aren't going to hurt your career comments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel Larusso (Post 164522)

You make a solid point about the reality/difficulty of a recall-of course that was already brought up several pages ago by a couple of the junior varsity members you speak of. But in case you didn't see it here goes: a recall is next to impossible because it can only be done by the MEC which at least on the surface is showing complete loyalty to DWebb. You'd have find a few MEC members willing to recall, find appropriate candidates to replace the others including Webb, and establish an effective and cohesive grass roots plan to discredit the MEC members who support Webb to get a recall motion successfully approved for even a vote. At an airline this big, my guess is that it would take 6-8 mos. of ground work minimum and that's if you are focused and motivated from the jump off. That's probably lowball considering the low local population in our largest domicile, reaching the hinterlands would be harder and all the incumbents would do is pack each recall motion meeting with local MEM pilots who support them. What I just wrote is reality, but probably is a little too dirty and political feeling for the masses around here-something that the politicians who accept ALPA positions know all too well. That's why Webb can say things like if you loses his job over this so be it. I seriously doubt the entire MEC is firmly behind what is going on here, but the dissenters are likely outnumbered and are not about to stick their necks out for any kind of opposition when they don't have the guns to pull it off. Appear unified and save your bullets for another day.

Capt. Zman is right about better education from the union being needed, but it ain't just the newhires or the junior. There are plenty of senior types on here and in the system who don't know much about the machinations of ALPA at both the local and national level. Alot of the junior varsity team has been around the block more than you give them credit for and the rest are sharp and tend to be quick learners if you give them the info. Ever consider that part of the reason that they are so mad at ALPA is that they've seen this movie before and the popcorn isn't tasting any better this go-round?

---

This is from another thread

Obviously there has been enough noise that the membership has seen several e-mails, and a AOC meeting. The MEC's position still is "we know what's better," and so we (the membership) need to step to the next level of voice which is begin a recall effort. If the MEC continues to ignore the majority, then, the recall happens at 66%. So if the recall doesn't happen, DW/MEC continues on their line of thought, I guarantee that we'll have a much bigger showing in the next elections. - Not a bad thing -

Did any of you get the e-mails about the lack of turnout of the at the LEC meetings? I know I'm going to be at more meetings and become more involved.

If the current MEC does stop it's line of thought,and does what the MEC is supposed to do, then it's not a bad thing.

If all in all, the only outcome is that we get more involved in an entity that has great impact on our careers, QOL, pay, benefits, longevity of the company we work for; we've all won.

ALPA CONSTITUTION Everyone should read it, I never even thought of it before this.

ARTICLE XVI - RECALL OF OFFICERS

B. Recall of any officer of the Association may also be accomplished in the following manner:

(1) If twenty-five percent (25%) of the Active members in good standing petition the Vice President-Administration/Secretary requesting a recall of any of said officers, it shall be the duty of the Vice -President-Administration/Secretary to circulate such a recall ballot to all Active members. If the Vice President-Administration/Secretary is the officer whose recall is being requested, it shall be the duty of the President to circulate such a recall ballot. Such ballots shall be returnable to the Election and Ballot Certification Board, and a reasonable deadline date shall be specified thereon. Recall shall require a two-thirds (2/3) vote of all Active members in good standing voting in such recall election. The Election and Ballot Certification Board shall certify the results of such recall election to the officers, the Board of Directors, and the membership. When such recall is accomplished, such recalled officer shall immediately be divested of all authority, prestige, and rights commensurate with his office.