The Master seniority list is revised every July 1st. I think the Big Dick Cotton turned 60 last Aug.

Also, I had a friend turn 60 last Jan. The co. told him he could go on personal Leave of Absence for up to 90 days. Per section 13 of the contract, you can apply for additional 90 day extentions for up to 24 months. During this period, you get no pay and no pension and your longevity stops after 60 days. Let's see, do we know anybody dumb enough to do this just so he can fly till he dies? I mean, other than George?

Jeez!! No pilot turning age 60 could possibly consider doing that. How would it be possible for him to pay his four ex-wives, pay back the money he borrowed for that Nigerian internet scam, for the damage to his P51 he ran off the runway with no hull insurance, the cost to transport his new pregnant wife, and her family from Subic to Los Angeles? You guys knw for a fact that all pilots that want to continue working are broke!!:rolleyes: You guys also know that the company has not intention of training them back in the Captain position. With that being true a LOA would probably be a foolish move.:D ;)

ALPA BY-LAWS ARTICLE III, SECTION 2F.


F. RECALL OF LOCAL COUNCIL REPRESENTATIVE OR OFFICER

huh?? I thought at first you were speaking in Shakespearian English...

Silly, silly boys!:rolleyes:

One Airbus Captain had his 60th birthday on Febuary 22, 2007 and is now on loa as he trains for a corporate jet job in BUR.

My mention of a recall is not only aimed at the age 60 thing. Regardless of what the issue is, if OUR ELECTED leadership (not dictatorship) is not a voice for the pilot group, then you and I have no real voice. As FreightDoggyDog said this is the second major issue where the MEC knew better than the membership. A Union is a collective voice for us, or at least that is the intent.

But at least I'm not quitting just because I'm not getting my way. :rolleyes: A boy would take his toys home, I'm staying put.

Thank you for your consideration and hope you have a lovely day.:)

You just don't understand how ALPA works.:(

If anyone who was there last night and is awake now can summarize what went down, those of us unable to make it would appreciate it. Thanks...

...what was the FIRST issue where we didn't get a voice?

Not biting on the "company offer" a couple years back was baking up our negoatiating committee. What other issue did I miss? (Warning--I get easily distracted and have a short memory...this is not a smart-alec question)

"...what was the FIRST issue where we didn't get a voice?"

How our scope penalty money would be used. It was supposed to come to us, instead it went to a fund for retiree health care whether we wanted it to or not. Not a huge deal at face value ($300 or so I think). At the time I had no problem with it but it was obviously a precendent setting move where the MEC told the members that they know better than they do about what is best for them. No vote, no poll, no say. Just like now.

Watch DC return be able to sleep in the left seat at show time of a line check.:(

Don't be so sure of yourself on this one. There is a guy that turned 60 in late Oct, still shows up as the #1 guy on the DC-10 CAP list and listed as NQN on his calendar, starting at his 60th b'day. Why does he still have a calendar if he's not trying to wait out the over 60 change by just taking a leave of absence?

Uh, yes we probably do know some people dumb enough!:eek:

Contract 13.A.5

5. A pilot on a leave of absence shall not engage in other flying employment without prior written permission from the System Chief Pilot.

One of JL's final signatures as CP?

A friend of mine who retired (at age 60) this year 2007 still has a calendar and is shown NQN. He said he has absolutely no intent on coming back, doesn't even miss it. He's enjoying flying too much, oops I mean fly fishing. :cool:
I think the NQN calendar just means that they are still on the master list.

This may be true, but I know there are some on LOA trying to wait this out.

Thanks for refreshing my memory. Didn't p1ss me off then, but based on current events perhaps that needs to be addressed.

Wasn't arguing with you or disagreeing with you, just was disseminating info that some retired guys do have calendars.

Yea, I understand. Hope I didn't come off as argumentative! Painkillers can have weird affects! I had surgery last week to enable me to last until retirement, whenever that might be. ;)

Anyone else out there see the irony of making retirement benefits such a major part of our last contract only to now be fighting for guys not to use it? I wonder how much better our negoitiating capitol could have been spent? It sure seems wasted to me right now. A bigger "B" fund sure would have been nice since many of those over and approaching Age 60 may not be using the increased benefits we got for them and it would at least have helped those who get caught in the stagnation that is coming.

Anyone remember how many Wide Body Captain slots were in the last MOAB bid? Remember how exciting that was? Now it looks like any future bids will have most of those slots filled with those over 60 when the reg changes if our MEC has their way. Not quite as exciting as it used to be...

Write your reps and encourage everyone to do the same. We deserve a say here..

"Yea, I understand. Hope I didn't come off as argumentative! Painkillers can have weird affects! I had surgery last week to enable me to last until retirement, whenever that might be."

Hope all is well MD. Did you have to get your tennis elbow fixed from tipping too many pints? Get well soon!

Speaking of getting well, anyone know where Tony C is? He has been very quiet on this issue..

So the better option is to quit, the way you have done many times in the past?

Weren't you calling for DW's ouster shortly before the T/A was announced?:mad:

Don't even get me started on this one. Me, Me, Me. That is the mantra of many over 50.

Forget those pesky newhires or lower seniority folks.....

I just received a reply from my block rep and the first line contained the words- "slippery slope". Sounds like the MEC script already. I won't share the details, you've probably already heard them yourself. But I will share my reply.

Yes, we agree on Age 60 and disagree on retroactivity. I truly don't understand how we 'roll-over' on the basic rule but we are going to retain our principles and fight everyone else on retroactivity. If it's inevitable that it is a doomed effort, then why not 'roll-over' on it too?

I still can't see how we are comparing apples to apples-- it is a ONE-TIME federal regulatory change that forces guys from the front seat and makes them wear a Scarlet Letter (A for Age); while the right to bid and fly what you can hold is written into the CBA and at the present time doesn't trump the regulatory requirement (and in the future should not either).

At the Regulatory Age the age 60 pilot experiences a Permanent Status Change. It is his choice whether the change is from pilot to S/O or from pilot to retired. We are talking about a relatively small group of folks who choose, for whatever personal reason, to change seats rather than retire. Their new status is Permanent and does not deserve to be reversed or changed because the rule changes to extend the deadline for other pilots.

Our history is full case where federal regulatory changes have created a small groups of disadvantaged "Tweeners" and most have unhappy stories that resulted from their new classifications. There are the folks screwed out of social security, there are the folks denied the GI bill in the 70s (VEAP) and many others that escape me at the moment. I believe our over-60 S/Os will be simply members of a new group of Tweeners who were at a unlucky place in the time/space continumum.

The bottom line here is that the company has not abrogated these folks' seniority; the federal government government permanently changed their status. It's a One Time change, not something that going to keep happening down through the ages. Although the MEC line seems to be that "retroactivity won't pass", has anyone really considered the true implications should your 'wish' be granted. A small group (how many non-members?) will gain untold and unintended advantage over the rest of the pilot group.

Small group advantages, whether real or imagined, are the fertile ground into which discord is sown. And I don't like what I already see happening. This decision to fight for a 'doomed' principle already has us fighting amongst ourselves and worse it's leadership against the membership. Now there's your slippery slope to the bottom-- 4 years of unity shot-in-the-head for a 'doomed' principle.

.

"The bottom line here is that the company has not abrogated these folks' seniority; the federal government government permanently changed their status. It's a One Time change, not something that going to keep happening down through the ages. Although the MEC line seems to be that "retroactivity won't pass", has anyone really considered the true implications should your 'wish' be granted. A small group (how many non-members?) will gain untold and unintended advantage over the rest of the pilot group.

Small group advantages, whether real or imagined, are the fertile ground into which discord is sown. And I don't like what I already see happening. This decision to fight for a 'doomed' principle already has us fighting amongst ourselves and worse it's leadership against the membership. Now there's your slippery slope to the bottom-- 4 years of unity shot-in-the-head for a 'doomed' principle."

Somebody say AMEN!!

Nicely written Fly. Send it to your rep and all other reps as well. I was told by one rep they don't pay attention to this board because there are only about 50 of us posting. BTW, be sure to ask why DW and the MEC save all their "principled stands" that we have no say on for those approaching retirement or those already retired. When will they stand up for the junior pilot?

I must say - my views on this union have radically changed in about the last month. And not for the better. I bet I'm not alone.

This union?

What? Would we have elected different leadership, if we were not part of this union?

Don't blame this union. It's not my fault.

Amen.. I mostly lurk but I have called my rep... YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!

"Don't blame this union. It's not my fault."

Go easy Busboy. Don't you think he/we have a reason for feeling disenfranchised here? The leadership is choosing to go completely against it's membership and allowing us no say on the matter. I can see why anyone would feel like calling it "this" union.

My point is that, we should not be blaming this union...We should be blaming our leadership. We are the union. DW, is not the union. Our MEC is not the union.

I guess in one sense, we can blame ourselves. We elected the LEC reps. Those of us that vote.

Principles? what about all retiree's!
 

If FDX Alpa wants to advocate retroacitve rights....then shouldn't they also fight for right of return for retired guys?! It's just luck that an over 60 guy here has a FE job! What about all those AA, Delta, NW, UAL,.... guys that "paid dues" all those years and "fought for contracts" that current pilots benifit from! The only difference with them is they don't have 3 person cockpits! It was the SAME LAW that put them on the street! The "Principle" applies, they LOST there Seniority number because of the SAME LAW!

How would this go over with other MEC's?

I forgot to ask my block rep if they were going to fight for the retired guys whose status had also permanently changed but decided not to go to the back seat. I predict the answer is NO-- because they no longer have a seniority number and rights which need to be protected but who are still on the company payroll per se.

We need to get a movement going for Right Seat Only, as Huck has mentioned in the past. I wrote that in two places in the online poll, anybody who hasn't taken the poll or included their opinion on that should take the time to do so.

I don't think for a minute our MEC will fight for that, and I doubt the BRP guys will either, and that will be the proof in the pudding that ALPA has failed in its obligation to represent the majority.

I'm going to have to see if I can find a vendor to produce a Right Seat Only lanyard for those of us who are tired of taking it up the arse from ALPA and their cronies over at the APAAD.

FJ

Dudes...if we want to send a signal we aren't satisfied, there are a ton of guys besides DW who can lead our MEC. He ain't a God. He's got experience, but if that expereince is working against the desires of 4000 guys then we need to find another guy.

I'm not anti-ALPA. I'm certainly not anti union. However--I am against anyone who won't listen to their constitutents. Give me info--don't tell me "what's best for me..."

Who wants to start the recall? I honestly think it can be forced if everyone is as irritated as I think they are.

Age 60--well...if we gotta. Retroactivety? Up yours. I'll be we can find at least ONE sharp, qualified, team player who would take that position to our MEC.

FYI...I join the walking wounded next week for back surgery, the sequel. I cannot go to MEM to vote but I can certainly email with the best of them...

ALPA leadership will twist your words. They will say you support over 60 guys returning to a higher seat. If a higher seat is o.k., then CA will be o.k.

I recommend saying they shouldn't go back to CA or FO. Since the retired guys can't come back, the SO's should get back up front.

You're not and it makes me sad. They are going to ruin the unity we had over this bull**** and then the company is going to run roughshod over the top of us while we are busy circle jerking over this.

Hang on....