Originally Posted by Asci

Yup. I remember when ATI was the lowest paid Amazon carrier. As soon as the signed a contract (making them the MOST expensive of the three) Amazon stopped giving them airplanes. Started giving them to Atlas (the lowest paid by over 50%) Even took to airplanes from ATI and gave them to Atlas. Said if they didn’t fix it they would give all of the ATI flying to Atlas. ATI will never see another airplane until Atlas signs a better contract. If Atlas is smart they will sign a contract for 10% less than ABX to keep getting all those new jets.

Originally Posted by Reactivity

Did you intentionally get that completely wrong?

Originally Posted by Asci

Yes. Reference the quote I was responding too. I’m so tired of the same handful of people just saying amazon is whipsawing the unions. If anything it’s whipsawing the management.

Facts:

Three airlines started flying for amazon.
The largest airline (Atlas) was allocated half of new airplanes.
The other two (ATI & ABX) were given the other half to be split as their parent company (ATSG) saw fit.

ABX, which has always staffed an overly lean airline, failed to hire enough pilots. This led to vacation cancellations, and other violations of the CBA. Which led to a strike over status quo violations. ABX had been working under a concessionary contract from 2009 and were still the highest paid Amazon carrier by almost double (When you include work rules maybe triple or quadruple). I’m sure their management team was using this new amazon flying and “whipsaw” to say we can’t possibly pay you any more (but they had been saying that since the whole DHL debacle. Not some new Amazon play in the industry). After the strike no more Amazon airplanes went to ABX and instead went to ATI. So it wasn’t that ATI was the bottom feeder who came and stole ABX’s customer. It was a miscalculation on striking when they thought they had leverage. To make sure they never got any new Amazon airplanes ABX pilots rented a billboard truck to drive around saying how terrible Amazon was and that they were destroying the industry. So in summary did a race to the bottom airline tank the ABX pilot group? No. They did it to themselves.

Atlas, bigger than the other two airlines and then some, started out doing well. But they too were in contract negotiations and were losing pilots in droves to the big five. Eventually this drug them down. The Amazon flying was by far the worst flying atlas had. It was on the smaller airplane and rather than being fun around the world flying with massive amounts of overtime it was constant day night hub turns. So eventually they started having trouble staffing it. Management not wanting to pay the pilots a fair wage went out and bought Southern to force an amalgamation down the throats of the pilot group AND to get the 737’s Amazon wanted to start flying. So now they have an even smaller airplane with the same crappy schedule for even less pay... imagine how well those performance numbers worked out. Now here’s the CRAZY part. Amazon said great job atlas for keeping your workforce in check. Just kidding. They said hey get this **** straightened out or we will give those airplanes to someone who can staff them. Atlas management was like yeah bra whatevs we know all u care about is the bottom line. And then amazon took two of their 767’s and gave them to ATI which had signed a new contract paying about double what Atlas did and slightly more than ABX (if ABX was busy enough like during peak their most senior pilots make more than ATI senior pilots). After that Atlas said girl you just playing. Then Amazon struck up a deal for another airline to fly 737’s.

ATI, the smallest and lowest paid of all, starts taking delivery of Amazon airplanes like everyone else. ATI management takes a risk and hires lots of pilots to make this new Amazon flying work. They are also in negotiations. During the ABX strike several ATI pilots cross the ABX picket line. There was no union coordination between the two groups. People show up to work and there are people striking. Don’t know why. Call ops call union reps no one knows what was going on. ABX pilots say the ramp is struck. Not sure how that works. To me it’s kinda like if delta went on strike at DFW and said no one can pax from DFW or you’re a scab. So a handful of ATI pilots flew ATI planes on ATI routes with amazon boxes on them. No ABX aircraft were flown. No freight was moved from ABX aircraft to ATI aircraft. Anyway a few hours later everything was shut down till everyone got a handle on what was going on. Courts got involved. Ordered ABX pilots back to work. Paid them what the contract said they were due. Few months later ATI signs a new contract basically matching one signed by K4 pilots a few months prior. Its not a great contract but when you go from making $120k to $220k at the end it’s a pretty big deal for your wallet. It’s only a three year contract with an early open for the next one as there was still a lot to be desired. The contract also had some weak 737 scope clause in it to go after that business. It ATI has pretty much been hiring at max capacity just to staff the 767’s so adding an airframe seems HIGHLY unlikely.

So Amazon adds 50 airplanes to the industry and gives them to the lowest paid carrier? No. It gives two companies half. The airline that PERFORMS the best gets more aircraft. Amazon doesn’t need the Cheapest freight mover out there. They just need there freight to move. I’ve been flying Amazon airplanes for almost four years now. I can’t tell you how many flights are full of empty pallets. It’s not cheaper to lease an airplane to fly around half empty than pay whatever ridiculously low margin contracts they have with UPS and FEDEX.

When will it change? When amazon and the airlines stop growing. And pilots become easy to find. That day is coming. Then perhaps the whipsaw will begin. But the big five are retiring a third of their pilot group in the next 5-10 years and they are still buying new airplanes all the time. And Amazon is still adding aircraft. And pilots at Amazon carriers are still leaving to go to the big five. So until that all changes you won’t see any whipsaw here.

Cue the trolls:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by asci

yes. Reference the quote i was responding too. I’m so tired of the same handful of people just saying amazon is whipsawing the unions. If anything it’s whipsawing the management.

Facts:

Three airlines started flying for amazon.
The largest airline (atlas) was allocated half of new airplanes.
The other two (ati & abx) were given the other half to be split as their parent company (atsg) saw fit.

Abx, which has always staffed an overly lean airline, failed to hire enough pilots. This led to vacation cancellations, and other violations of the cba. Which led to a strike over status quo violations. Abx had been working under a concessionary contract from 2009 and were still the highest paid amazon carrier by almost double (when you include work rules maybe triple or quadruple). I’m sure their management team was using this new amazon flying and “whipsaw” to say we can’t possibly pay you any more (but they had been saying that since the whole dhl debacle. Not some new amazon play in the industry). After the strike no more amazon airplanes went to abx and instead went to ati. So it wasn’t that ati was the bottom feeder who came and stole abx’s customer. To prevent atsg from violating scope language and moving aircraft to ati, abx was forced to strike while in sec 6 negotiations. Hete having a tantrumafter the strike and under estimating the resolve of the abx pilots to enforce their contract decided to stop giving any additional amazon aircraft to abx.. So in summary did a race to the bottom airline tank the abx pilot group? No. They made millions during the years since with a stronger contract that pays in all areas for management stupidity.

Atlas, bigger than the other two airlines and then some, started out doing well. But they too were in contract negotiations and were losing pilots in droves to the big five. Eventually this drug them down. The amazon flying was by far the worst flying atlas had. It was on the smaller airplane and rather than being fun around the world flying with massive amounts of overtime it was constant day night hub turns. So eventually they started having trouble staffing it. Management not wanting to pay the pilots a fair wage went out and bought southern to force an amalgamation down the throats of the pilot group and to get the 737’s amazon wanted to start flying. So now they have an even smaller airplane with the same crappy schedule for even less pay... Imagine how well those performance numbers worked out. Now here’s the crazy part. Amazon said great job atlas for keeping your workforce in check. Just kidding. They said hey get this **** straightened out or we will give those airplanes to someone who can staff them. Atlas management was like yeah bra whatevs we know all u care about is the bottom line. And then amazon took two of their 767’s and gave them to ati which had signed a new contract paying about double what atlas did and slightly more than abx (if abx was busy enough like during peak their most senior pilots make more than ati senior pilots). After that atlas said girl you just playing. Then amazon struck up a deal for another airline to fly 737’s.

Ati, the smallest and lowest paid of all, starts taking delivery of amazon airplanes like everyone else. Ati management takes a risk and hires lots of pilots to make this new amazon flying work. They are also in negotiations. During the abx strike several ati pilots cross the abx picket line. There was no union coordination between the two groups. People show up to work and there are people striking. Don’t know why. Call ops call union reps no one knows what was going on. Abx pilots say the ramp is struck. Not sure how that works. To me it’s kinda like if delta went on strike at dfw and said no one can pax from dfw or you’re a scab. So a handful of ati pilots flew ati planes on ati routes with amazon boxes on them. No abx aircraft were flown. No freight was moved from abx aircraft to ati aircraft. Anyway a few hours later everything was shut down till everyone got a handle on what was going on. Courts got involved. Ordered abx pilots back to work. Paid them what the contract said they were due. Few months later ati signs a new contract basically matching one signed by k4 pilots a few months prior. Its not a great contract but when you go from making $120k to $220k at the end it’s a pretty big deal for your wallet. It’s only a three year contract with an early open for the next one as there was still a lot to be desired. The contract also had some weak 737 scope clause in it to go after that business. It ati has pretty much been hiring at max capacity just to staff the 767’s so adding an airframe seems highly unlikely.

So amazon adds 50 airplanes to the industry and gives them to the lowest paid carrier? No. It gives two companies half. The airline that performs the best gets more aircraft. Amazon doesn’t need the cheapest freight mover out there. They just need there freight to move. I’ve been flying amazon airplanes for almost four years now. I can’t tell you how many flights are full of empty pallets. It’s not cheaper to lease an airplane to fly around half empty than pay whatever ridiculously low margin contracts they have with ups and fedex.

When will it change? When amazon and the airlines stop growing. And pilots become easy to find. That day is coming. Then perhaps the whipsaw will begin. But the big five are retiring a third of their pilot group in the next 5-10 years and they are still buying new airplanes all the time. And amazon is still adding aircraft. And pilots at amazon carriers are still leaving to go to the big five. So until that all changes you won’t see any whipsaw here.

Cue the trolls:
There...fixed it for you.


Sent from my iphone using tapatalk

Originally Posted by No Land 3

Don't bring in bullcrap politics, the previous president did nothing in that regard.

Originally Posted by nitefr8dog

The only part you forgot is Hete decides who flies the aircraft at ATSG not Amazon. Also you did not mention that the pilots at ATI had to agree to accept a horrible contact with absolutely 0 scheduling rules, 1/2 disability payout, lower 401k match, no vacation slide protection, no scope....etc, etc, to get the additional aircraft. These are things ABX crews are not willing to give up. Hell with the pay/work rules at ABX, I make more money on a 10 yr old contract than ATI pilots on a 2 yr contract. They took it straight up the tail pipe for a crappy pay raise.

Originally Posted by Asci

Fair points. Hete is the CEO of ATSG and calls all the shots for every operating segment. Counterpoint. Let’s say you own a smart phone company. And you sign a contract with a company that owns two chip making companies to produce x number of chips per year. Making these chips requires very expensive tooling equipment which you provide to the CEO. Neither of these companies can produce the whole order so the CEO gives half the equipment to company A and half to company B. During the busiest time of year company A goes on strike due to contract violations and you cant fill a bunch of orders. Then company A starts picketing your headquarters saying you are ruining there lives. Tell me honestly you wouldn’t go to the CEO and tell him I will give you more special tooling equipment as long as you don’t give any of it to company A? Now if you’re the CEO do you say 1. I’ll do whatever I please with that equipment and get ZERO new business. Or 2. I’m sorry this happens I will take your equipment and promise to only give it to company B?
The answer is clear.

As far as the ATI Contract sucking, no disagreement there. Especially compared to ABX. That being said now that they can afford to feed their families I bet you see a lot more work rules, retirement, vacation slide etc. on the next contract. I’m sure it will take a while and be a tough negotiation. Hopefully ABX and Atlas will manage contracts before then. It’s gonna be a completely new pilot group Hete is negotiating with. 3/4 of the pilots on property didn’t even get to vote on the latest contract. They often come from airlines with real scheduling software and technology from this century. The question will be do these pilots want to make this a career airline (which as an ACMI is tough to do) or get what they can and keep moving on to the big 5.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by CardboardCutout

Would this be the right place to point out that the Atlas crash investigation has been updated? Looks like the rumors were true...