LOA Absolutes
 

The information presented as fact is accurate as of today. The opinions following are obviously subject to debate.

Indisputable Facts:
#1. The Company intends to open domicile's in HKG and CDG in the near future.
#2. Pilots will be based at these domiciles whether a) they voluntarily bid them b) they are forced to be there under the CBA.
#3. The LOA provides a) Move packages b) Housing offsets c) Income tax offsets d) Longevity bonus e) Contractual protection and Status for pilots in these domicile's under the RLA.
#4. Every FDX pilot has the opportunity to input a standing bid that reflects their choice of Aircraft and Domicile.

Opinions:
1. The likelihood that either #1 or #2 will not occur with or without this LOA are minimal.
2. If the LOA is voted down; Any pilot who falls under #2 may lose some if not all of those items listed in #3, most importantly #3e.
3. Voting Yes for the LOA does not remove anyones right to #4.
4. The perceived or actual financial benefits that current Subic pilots enjoy will not be mirrored at this time in either CDG or HKG; with the passage or the failure of the LOA.
5. Voting No will not "force" the company to come back with a better offer. Voting Yes does not guarantee that every available seat will be filled with newhires.
6. This LOA is woefully short of expectations and anyone who purposely bids for either of these domiciles with/without the LOA does so knowing full well the financial consequences.

Therefore if this LOA is "voted down", the only people who are truly going to be adversely impacted are those pilots who did not want to go at all!

Which cubicle at the AOC is yours?

Now that's pretty darn funny Albie :D

If I agreed that all of your facts were facts and all of your opinions were correct - and I believed that the last statement (which was not designated as a fact or opinion) were also true --
Are you proposing the logical conclusion is that I should vote FOR the LOA?

you gotta be 'itten me
 

From a poolie, who has been floatin' since October, my job search just began in earnest (again....something I thought I'd never say after Kim gave me the good news.... so much for that March 1st class date.)

I fit the profile, mid 30's, kids, good career so far, looking for the job to get me to retirement. Now, I'm not so sure I want to be a part of FDX if the union and membership rolls over on this one too. Let's not even bring up age 60. I'm objective, been around the block, spoken to lots of folks on both sides, my late 50's sponsor (who btw is against the age change), even Albie for goodness sakes...... The MEC and those who are in favor of this crappola should have to go live the lives on those who they are about to scruuuuu over royally.

I hate to see the powerhouse the FDX once was (and still is) begin the downhill race to the bottom like the regionals and lots of legacy carriers. From a poolie, IJMHO. I could go on for days, but I still have to carry on and not let a bunch of senior complacent individuals ruin my career or separate me from my family. They obviously have been under the influence of D. Worthless wayyyy to long. Gee thanks.

:(

Why did the company even negotiate an LOA if they don't need to?
Just open the FDAs.
Yet here we have an LOA.

Your opinion 6.
"This LOA is woefully short of expectations and anyone who purposely bids for either of these domiciles with/without the LOA does so knowing full well the financial consequences."
Is FACT!!

hey poolie....you have no idea what u r talking about...this is just part of doing business...good luck on your job search....i hear jetblue is hiring..

what profile r u talking about?:confused:

As Captain Mark said, "price of doing business" we all ***** but we love each other. Good luck in your job search. Your right FedEx might not be right for you. Give up your pool slot to someone who is not so unsure.

Why ***** at him?

If you applied and got on with FedEx with the assumption that your job starting out would be 27S MEM, and then Age 65 happened pushing everything to the right 5 years, with the added kick in the nuts that you might have to at the very least commute to ANC, CDG, or HKG, or worse live there in a shack, you'd be *****ing too.

#2. Pilots will be based at these domiciles whether a) they voluntarily bid them b) they are forced to be there under the CBA.

How are they going to force people to the FDA? I can see a SIBA thing, but to they can't force you to the FDA.
As for a new hire, Fedex would be crazy to offer a new hire a low paying 1st year job, have to live in CDG or HKG for 3 years, and not give them anything extra. I know guys would take it, but not a lot. I think they would look at Cathay a little bit closer if you had to live in HKG anyway.
I am still waiting for ssomebody to explain this "better scope" statement also. I see no scope change at all.
As for the NC quitting if this doesn't pass, I hope so, this deal stinks.

CaptainMark and Fr8Hauler, I agree with HoursHore about alafly's post. We shouldn't be stifling anyone's input on these boards. I'm certainly interested in the opinion of someone who is probably going to be most affected by this POS.

waaaaa!!!! who makes assumptions?..we have had new hires got to anc and subic..if he doesn't like it then he can wear a blue shirt..and we all got a kick in the nuts with the age 60 change.....i was going to be #1 on the seniority list at 57..now? who knows!!!!:D

so what are you saying..we can't bust his stones a little? he has no seniority number and who knows if we will hire for another 5 years? if it passes he says we will be in a downward spiral anyway and he has already started a job search..ease up my man!:D

Yeah, that's right, I don't have spot on property yet which is pretty much all i've wanted for about 3 years. Like I said, IJMHO from the other side of the fence.

Funny how the senor guys jump on the newbie and the junior guys on property see my side also. Guess it's a memory thing.

I seriously hope this LOA doesn't pass for everyone at FDX. It sets a precedent for lackluster leadership and a tone for worse considerations in the future. I hope I'm wrong..... FWIW, if your a sponsor of anyone (and just about everyone is or would like to be), ask your sponsoree if they like or would accept these terms. .......I didn't think so....

.................................

well i am in my mid-thirties too..my memory is pretty good!!!

Alafly,

A bunch of us are very interested in your input. Remember--for a lot of guys--being at FDX is the coolest thing they've ever done. Disresprect towards FDX is as bad as badmouthing your favorite squadron or service branch.

Try this: Glad to be on the team (eventually) and hope I'm not stuck at poverty wages in Hong Kong as I pay my new guy dues....

Remember squadron new guy etiquette? You get to speak your mind....once you've been here about 3 months. (always seemed silly to a loudmouth like me too--but its just a fact of life...)

Captain Mark ain't a bad guy...he just got dropped on his head as a baby and is pretty darn proud of his company. Can't help the first point and I actually appreciate the second point. He'll also help you out once you are on the property--even if you don't believe that right now.


One thing to consider for anyone joining an airline right now is you need to go where you can be happy as a FO for 5-10 years. Rapid upgrades are likely done for a while, and with SWA slowing growth, JB returning airplanes, and a bunch of old guys at CAL now (maybe) getting a 5 year pass....NOBODY is going anywhere fast. Make sure whatever option you take is best for a long haul on the bottom half of the pay scales. This subject is common as guys compare SWA and DAL....SWA wins big if you upgrade at 5-8 years, but if you have to be an FO for 10 plus years, where do you think you'd be happiest?

PM me if you want to vent or have questions. Right now--"gee--can't wait to join the best job in the industry"...

Trust me--lots of people hate this turd of an LOA a lot more than you do...

hey hey hey!!!..be nice !...my dad was a spang alum in the 50s..are you saying he was not coordinated?

Hey, don't slander the Latin Americans like that.

Seriously, He is on the chopping block on this issue. Atleast he's got the b@lls to stand up against this piece of Sh!t.


If I was on the outside looking in as this young man is, I would be rethinking my career goals also.:cool:

chopping block????? i agree this is substandard LOA ...but go tell a regional pilot he can go fly a fedex widebody overseas with this LOA and i guarantee he will sign up tomorrow knowing what the future holds...i will be voting NO as i have previously stated..but chopping block??? come on guys..the sky is not falling..yet!..like i told the poolie..part of doing business!...no offense to the SENORS!

I say you and alafly are both right to a degree Capt Mark. Some guys will take anything -is that a positive- and some will question any change to the job they thought they were getting.

ALAFLY - One thing that seems for certain is that something untasty could come along any minute at any of the carriers.

BUT, if I was facing newhire to the right of the 75 in Paris with a family (say a 3rd, 5th, and 7th grader) back home ----see ya FEDEX. Family first, airplanes second. You owe your kids a good upbringing. You would have to be independently wealthy to get that in Paris on our payscale the first couple yrs with this LOA.

Alafly -- I am a clear NO voter. What you need to understand as you are critical of this LOA is that nobody finds it adequate. What some people are afraid of is giving you a worse deal by voting NO - so hopefully you get the opportunity to see how it plays out before they call! I hope it works out for you and all of us!

Alafly,

Hopefully you'll not make the same mistake twice. If you've been following the cargo side of this web site for any length of time, you should have come to the realization that here at FedEx, we b!tch about everything and anything, and, at the drop of a hat. However, none of us really like it when an outsider does our b!tching for us. As with the vast majority of these incidents, we usually circle the wagons, which is what happened to you here. This LOA might be sh!t, but it's our sh!t. If, and when, you're lucky enough to be here for a little while, you're more than welcome to join the b!tch-fest, until then, just please sit back and enjoy.

Disputing "indisputable facts"
 

Fair enough, we have that in writing.
CBA 24.C.5.b clearly states that a) is fact and b) is fiction. They can't force someone to go over there per the current CBA. However, if ratified, this LOA permits the forcing of unwilling crewmembers into these assignments involuntarily for up to 3 months at a time.
Yes, 1 move package is as currently provided in the CBA WITHOUT any housing allowance OR if you want the housing allowance, you get to take a whopping 500 lbs with you. In other words, if you want a housing offset, you have to get a furnished place, which further diminishes the value of that meager offset.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by av8torguy (Post 187914)

b) Housing offsets

---

Only if you waive every syllable of previously negotiated CBA section 6 and elect the "enhanced" option of the LOA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by av8torguy (Post 187914)

c) Income tax offsets

---

True. We are told you will pay "approximately" the same federal tax burden as if you were Memphis. Details have not been forthcoming. What about the 1st year Hong Kong F/O who makes under 82K? Do that math and then tell me who gets the difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by av8torguy (Post 187914)

d) Longevity bonus

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Yes. $5000.00 after 4 years. That's 5000.00/48 months = $104.66/month.....BEFORE TAXES! If you upgrade during that time, those months in the ITU do not count.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by av8torguy (Post 187914)

e) Contractual protection and Status for pilots in these domicile's under the RLA.

---

That agreement is there so the company doesn't find itself in a French labor court with a disgruntled pilot.

CaptainMark,

Your theory would have some merit if FedEx hired the same profile as most other majors. By and large they do not. Your average FDX pilot civilian or military tends to be hired at an older age here than at other majors. I know that there are people like you but that's not the norm. As a sidenote, I suppose they do it for cheaper pension payouts but it also allows some of us pilots to puff up our chests and feel that were better or more qualified than our counterparts at other carriers. Anyway your typical ex-regional check airman type who comes to FDX likely has the same wife and 3 kids that the military guy does, he's just 5-8 years younger but equally uninterested in living in Paris or Hong Kong on 50 bones an hour.

As I understand the purple nugget provision, they went to indoc and training with the expectation of going to Anchorage or Subic now versus Memphis later.

So, their decision was to grab the seniority # sooner rather than later.

It is my expectation that may occur again with the new domiciles.

Again, as I see it,
3 years and get a paid move of my stuff to the FDA---only added benefit is the tax equalization.
2 years, don't get to move my stuff--get up to a 2700$ housing allowance, and tax equalization.


In another post, someone figured out the average plane ticket cost for SIBA was around 3 grand (from the memphis propaganda rag) and viola, the housing allowance we negotiated seems to replace the ticket cost with a housing cost.

Doesn't seem to factor in the additional productivity that will occur once people are living in domicile (not a player for the Subic guys)....but still, out of the CDG guys, company will be getting a minimum of another 4 days of productivity without even trying that hard. Crank the optimizer, and it might be more.
Right now, that equates to about a 2k savings on salary. (widebody estimate of about 350$/hour per crew @ 6CH/ day = 2100 to be precise)
[Experienced narrowbody pay about 300$/hour is a bit cheaper]


So, just in extra productivity, talking about 8k per crew, and we are being offered up to 5.4k---if you take the 2 year package. Doesn't even seem to factor in the saved transportation costs. Doesn't factor in the savings on the hotel standby crews---sitting reserve @ home versus the CDG courtyard marriott 90 EUR/day@ 27 days (3 lines with HSBY for JUL) = 2430 EUR or 4800 EUR total



So, agree just to get that first contract or say no and work towards something better.

Hard for me to believe many of the existing SIBA guys are going to downgrade from widebody pay to narrowbody pay, take a cut in their QOL due to living in a more expensive area, and spend more time working versus DH to work----thanks to the grab the money now LOA and work on improving it later.

BTW-price of gas ROT is about twice the US....so, around 6$ a gallon. Guess that's another QOL hit I need to take to be a narrowbody FO and help FedEx through these trying economic times.

I'm sure they'll make it up to me once the economy improves.

I apologize for #2b, but I equated accepting a position/job with FDX predicated on your willingness to be based in HKG/CDG on "newhire" pay as "Being forced".

Not much discussion on #4? Hmmmmm?

FDA Vacancy Awards

1. Primary and, if applicable, secondary FDA vacancies shall be awarded in seniority order based on pilots' standing bids. The Company may elect not to fill secondary FDA vacancies.
2. No pilot may be assigned involuntarily to fill an FDA vacancy. If no pilot on the Master Seniority List expresses a preference by standing bid for an FDA vacancy, the Company may hire a pilot to fill that vacancy

Prediction:
Regardless of the LOA, pass or fail; No/0/Nada/Zilch Captain positions will be filled by a "Newhire"!
The top 80% of F/O's will not be "Newhires"!

mine was just an example...but if a bid comes out without the LOA do you really think that noone will bid these domiciles?...senior bus FOs flying SIBA will gobble up the 757 CPT slots and the subic guys will gobble up all the HKG slots...we all know it regardless of what the subic guys are saying now.."THEY ARE NOT COMING HOME"...remember this is the same crewforce that flies every single disputed pairing...:confused:

i could not have said that better...thanks!;)

ALAFLY...good luck with your class date...i hear from my management buds cassell wants a 3 yr bid right after the DC-10 excess bid coming out...we will see

Alafly, good luck and you've got our senior guys pegged
 

Do you remember 200%?
Do you remember how we folded like a house of cards when Mr. Smith threatened to lay off out of seniority?
Do you remember 10 years to get a cost of living raise? And then 3 years of negotiations to just get another one.
Do you remember one example of this pilot group standing up to anything?
Alafly, our senior pilots have been outplayed by the company at every turn cause we've never really been into that union thing. Our learning curve has been slow, painful, and embarrassing to anyone with a spine. We hate to be reminded of it and hope nobody in aviation knows. I think we are improving but the senior guys just figured out how to hang around for 5 more years. The truth hurts but some senior guys, the mid seniority and junior guys do have a different attitude. Anytime anybody brags about being here a long time and looks down on you, ask him why he let the company go 10 years without giving the pilots a raise duiring record profits? Thanks for the input and I hope you'll be negotiating my retirement raise some day.

As one of those relatively new guys, I can say that this LOA doesn't represent any of us who are married with kids and let our wives work at home taking care of the kids. A big part of coming to FedEx was providing stability for them. Since obviously everyone on the negotiating commitee's kids are long sincs out of school, they've lost touch with that. A new guy in the FDA with kids, on probation...give me a break. It wouldn't work for me now on widebody FO pay. I am just hoping that since I am in the bottom 3rd in my seat that I don't get the not so random inverse senority assignment in Hong Kong for three months. Until I see something that helps the crew force equally, my vote is NO.

yes i remember all that..i also remember my volunteer time at the union and when it came down to the strike i recall many of those old guys whining to FF that they would not strike at the last minute..a lot of them..all senior..and oddly enough one had the initials...BC...how ironic...i am with you...but this crew force has been a work in progress for a long time and the know-it-alls seem never to take a leadership position..just complain!

I do not disagree with the points made concerning the expensive nature of cdg/hkg. However, two key points that have I have not seen addressed is the virtual requirement of private school education in the culturally diverse domicile of MEM. (Granted, one doesn't not have to live within 100 miles of MEM, THANK YA JEEESUS!!) 2, What kind of leverage does the Association have negotiating this LOA. We can't strike over this issue. The NMB cannot Mediate this issue. If someone is perceptive enough to see where we have traction on this issue, please teach grasshoppa.

I'll take a stab at it. Big picture is that because it's in the best interest of both ALPA(National/MEC level) and the company. The company is presently overstaffed in their opinion(the one that counts) particularly in the 727 and DC-10. Neither one of those aircraft have had primary vacancies posted for quite some time and will likely never see them again. So we are looking at secondaries and excesses on those planes. Like every other posting lately, we'll see the 'at this time we are anticipating reductions in the 727 and DC-10 positions' line. Let's say that because of this FDA mess, junior 727 FO's and SO's don't bid off the plane b/c they want to stay stateside. The company then will just excess people off of the 727 and DC-10. In the first excess round, the junior folks hired the last 2 years or so who don't wish to go to an FDA will put down ANC MD or MEM A300. In a forced displacement scenario, I expect that the company will flatten or zero out growth on the widebodies in MEM, ANC and LAX. So not everyone will be able to get ANC or MEM 300 and there would be secondary excesses that would force the purple nuggets and the bottom A300 guys off the last posting into excess as well. At this point the only thing that their seniority could hold beyond the FDA's is the 727 panel. However that is getting stocked up with over 60 guys and age 65 won't be settled before the next bid.

So now they are people without a home, who cannot be contractually forced to bid a FDA. Normally the answer would be to hire, but this seems a touch unrealistic in an overstaffed situation . We are basically asking the company to hire people when they already have the people because we (rightfully) don't want to go to these FDA's. I don't see that happening, so they pull out the trump card: furlough. Doesn't mean it will happen or that it makes sense, but the threat of it will cause the MEC to do something. Either they will present us with situation and let us make the call on whether or not to voluntarily change our bids or they make a judgement call and do it for us. I haven't seen our bylaws on this, but most people are unaware that membership ratification isn't necessary for anything other than cba's unless otherwise codified somewhere in the individual airlines MEC bylaws. I've seen pretty big $$$ amendments and deals go down via MEC approval vs. the pilots basically because those MEC's thought they were saving the pilots from themselves. We can go round and round about whether that is right or not, especially in light of what just happened with Age 65, but the fact remains it can happen. I believe UsAir's MEC approved a concessionary deal around the time of their 2nd bk without a vote. United ALPA approved a domestic codeshare and a retirement allocation package without memrat. I'm not sure, but I think Delta's retread Captain deal didn't go through memrat either. Beyond the potential furlough implications, I just cannot see this MEC or ALPA Natl allowing us to set up a situation where foreign pilots could end up with those jobs and force an international scope test. Throw rocks at the wall if you like, but they aren't letting that happen. I'm sure someone will come in and tighten up what I said, but the basic jist of it is between ALPA and the company, some of us are going there bid or no bid. I think the LOA is being offered to maintain system integrity because there would no doubt be operational issues if they just send us over there with nothing.

One of the rumors on this message board this week was that BC didn't have a problem with the pilots paying for their own FDA schooling costs. His logic (at least as it was stated here?) was that they would have to pay a similar amount for private school in Memphis anyway?

YGTBSM! PLEASE TELL ME THIS ISN"T A GOOD RUMOR!*? PLEASE TELL ME OUR NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN HAS BETTER JUDGEMENT AND COMMON SENSE THAN THIS!*? PLEASE?


Mark

Honestly, I don't know what anyone in the crewforce will do. You may be 100% right. I was just saying that if you gave those jobs to a 25-28 year regional guy with no attachments they'll jump, but if you give it to older regional guys and ex-mil you'll likely see some pause. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see anything in there about giving FDA newhires 2nd year pay to start so it will be tight. I can already envision future threads filled with rage over people who accepted class dates on the hope of getting something stateside and then quitting when they get a FDA slot instead. 'They knew it coming in!', 'Kim called them and explained the situation,' 'Outrageous' we will all say!

Mark,

It is absolutely true. According to what I heard (one step from the horse's mouth), Cassel, Maliniak, Maxwell, Lewis, Rosado, Webb, Chimenti and the SFS Status Rep were in Guangzhou to check out its feasibility as a crew base. (By the way, they were there at the end of the March, when they planned to open an FDA bid in May or early June. Is this proper due diligence on the part of the company?) They were assisted by some relocation experts and personnel from Procter & Gamble. When the discussion about schools came up and the cost of schooling was mentioned to be around $15,000, someone asked who paid for it. The answer, like all the previous answers to who pays for the living expenses, was; Procter & Gamble. Apparently, Bob Chimenti spoke up and said, "Fifteen thousand dollars a year? That's not bad. That's what I pay for my children." At this the SFS Status Rep turned to Chimenti and said, "Hold on Bob, that's your choice! If you live in China there won't be a choice."

So, living in China, or Paris for that matter is just like living in Memphis. I guess. Brilliant!!

You need a fact checker, my friend.

Current CBA says...Sec 26.W.1.
All pilots assigned to an FDA are fully covered by all provisions of this Agreement.

This post was a great response I would just like to clarify; the no US Tax number is about $140K in HK assuming about $60K in housing costs. Could go up to 200K with bigger housing expenses. I sure hope we get some tax numbers from our own guys and aren't waiting for fedex to provide them.

And reading the language, if I return to the US for 36 days I could screw FEDEX out of my exclusion (they'll have to pay a lot more to equalize my taxes). Maybe they will split the diff with me.

This is a very fine point, but important; in the LOA it says:

2. In order to be awarded a permanent vacancy in CDG or HKG, a pilot must agree to sign a CDG/HKG FDA Agreement, agreed upon by the parties (Attachment A), which provides, in part, that the pilot’s terms and conditions of employment are governed by the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) and applicable laws of the United States, and not by the laws of the country where the FDA is located.

It's that last part of the sentence; ...and not by the laws of the country where the FDA is located.

You won't find that anywhere in the current CBA.