ATSG Group AMAZON and DHL
02-22-2023, 08:01 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 207
Originally Posted by ACMIguy
13 years of this and I’ve learned that Amazon and DHL are both scumbag operators. The profit margins for their contractors will never be high. A few years ago I was in Seattle having breakfast at the airport hotel and had my badge turned around so I kept getting glances from all the ATSG pilots trying to figure out who I was. Anyway, I heard them all bragging about how they were poaching flying from a larger (might even say “Giant”) air carrier. This other airline was in stalled contract negotiations and their opinion was that we were so embittered that we would never survive as an operator. I just smirked and chuckled to myself. Being Amazon’s golden boy doesn’t mean much. I’ve always admired my airline’s high diversification and ability to bring in high profit contracts. They know how to make cold hard cash. DHL/AZN will always just be icing on our cake, not our cake.
Each customer (aka DHL, AMZ, and even your FDX) decides whom they contract to fly for them. They have and will continue to shuffle/ripsaw/whatever their ops between various operators to achieve a goal. We all believe correctly that goal is the best ops they can get for the lowest cost. This model has been at the regionals looonnnngg before I was a pimple popper in a Bae3100 during the 80's. It doesn't work well from a pilots perspective, and never has. Contracting companies/main-line carriers will continue to reinvent the same wheel at the cost of the ACMI/Regional segment of the industry. It's not going away, just reshuffled continually. For now, Giant is up to bat (expiration dates) on their AMZ operated a/c. AMZ will re-up with you for all/some/none of the 17 you operate....no doubt others are bidding (even invited to bid) on the same work. Ebay for AMZ flying is the color of the day; tomorrow it will just be someone else.
02-22-2023, 09:43 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 834
Originally Posted by abxflyr
You are correct in that DHL/AMZ are both at the low end of ACMI world. ACMI in itself, including all the Giant does, is crap work. Do you really think FDX has enjoyed y'all on their ramps? They use it to further their improvements if possible. So to be clear, we're all in the crapper...just some more than other (I will grant you that). Not sure about that higher level a maturity, moving badges, etc. The group you refer to "ATSG" isn't an airline, I've researched high and low...check IATA, ICAO, CASS, FAA telephony directory...no ATSG. Therefore I assume you are referencing one of ATSG's companies...either ABX, ATI, or Omni. I can only guess which, but I will leave that to your definition.
Each customer (aka DHL, AMZ, and even your FDX) decides whom they contract to fly for them. They have and will continue to shuffle/ripsaw/whatever their ops between various operators to achieve a goal. We all believe correctly that goal is the best ops they can get for the lowest cost. This model has been at the regionals looonnnngg before I was a pimple popper in a Bae3100 during the 80's. It doesn't work well from a pilots perspective, and never has. Contracting companies/main-line carriers will continue to reinvent the same wheel at the cost of the ACMI/Regional segment of the industry. It's not going away, just reshuffled continually. For now, Giant is up to bat (expiration dates) on their AMZ operated a/c. AMZ will re-up with you for all/some/none of the 17 you operate....no doubt others are bidding (even invited to bid) on the same work. Ebay for AMZ flying is the color of the day; tomorrow it will just be someone else.
Each customer (aka DHL, AMZ, and even your FDX) decides whom they contract to fly for them. They have and will continue to shuffle/ripsaw/whatever their ops between various operators to achieve a goal. We all believe correctly that goal is the best ops they can get for the lowest cost. This model has been at the regionals looonnnngg before I was a pimple popper in a Bae3100 during the 80's. It doesn't work well from a pilots perspective, and never has. Contracting companies/main-line carriers will continue to reinvent the same wheel at the cost of the ACMI/Regional segment of the industry. It's not going away, just reshuffled continually. For now, Giant is up to bat (expiration dates) on their AMZ operated a/c. AMZ will re-up with you for all/some/none of the 17 you operate....no doubt others are bidding (even invited to bid) on the same work. Ebay for AMZ flying is the color of the day; tomorrow it will just be someone else.
Last edited by PineappleXpres; 02-22-2023 at 09:58 AM.
02-22-2023, 05:04 PM
#24
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,471
Originally Posted by abxflyr
You are correct in that DHL/AMZ are both at the low end of ACMI world. ACMI in itself, including all the Giant does, is crap work. Do you really think FDX has enjoyed y'all on their ramps? They use it to further their improvements if possible. So to be clear, we're all in the crapper...just some more than other (I will grant you that). Not sure about that higher level a maturity, moving badges, etc. The group you refer to "ATSG" isn't an airline, I've researched high and low...check IATA, ICAO, CASS, FAA telephony directory...no ATSG. Therefore I assume you are referencing one of ATSG's companies...either ABX, ATI, or Omni. I can only guess which, but I will leave that to your definition.
Each customer (aka DHL, AMZ, and even your FDX) decides whom they contract to fly for them. They have and will continue to shuffle/ripsaw/whatever their ops between various operators to achieve a goal. We all believe correctly that goal is the best ops they can get for the lowest cost. This model has been at the regionals looonnnngg before I was a pimple popper in a Bae3100 during the 80's. It doesn't work well from a pilots perspective, and never has. Contracting companies/main-line carriers will continue to reinvent the same wheel at the cost of the ACMI/Regional segment of the industry. It's not going away, just reshuffled continually. For now, Giant is up to bat (expiration dates) on their AMZ operated a/c. AMZ will re-up with you for all/some/none of the 17 you operate....no doubt others are bidding (even invited to bid) on the same work. Ebay for AMZ flying is the color of the day; tomorrow it will just be someone else.
Each customer (aka DHL, AMZ, and even your FDX) decides whom they contract to fly for them. They have and will continue to shuffle/ripsaw/whatever their ops between various operators to achieve a goal. We all believe correctly that goal is the best ops they can get for the lowest cost. This model has been at the regionals looonnnngg before I was a pimple popper in a Bae3100 during the 80's. It doesn't work well from a pilots perspective, and never has. Contracting companies/main-line carriers will continue to reinvent the same wheel at the cost of the ACMI/Regional segment of the industry. It's not going away, just reshuffled continually. For now, Giant is up to bat (expiration dates) on their AMZ operated a/c. AMZ will re-up with you for all/some/none of the 17 you operate....no doubt others are bidding (even invited to bid) on the same work. Ebay for AMZ flying is the color of the day; tomorrow it will just be someone else.
And their blankets are comfortable.
You make it sound like we think it's some special golden goose for us. It really isn't. I don't think you understand how diverse our contract portfolio is.
02-23-2023, 07:32 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 207
It was important enough to have opened a pilot base, which isn't the case for every customer (a replacement for HSV?) even though it's small in number of a/c. The jest is not FDX itself, just as you mentioned, it's just another customer...even as diversified as Atlas is they are still primarily ACMI. Unfortunately having the same struggles as others in the same segment (lower pay, work rules, CBA, retirement, ability to retain individuals).
Obviously within the segment there is going to be some hierarchy. To keep on thread, the ATSG carriers are (IMO) on the lower end, although not the bottom. ATI is slaved to AMZ, ABX is loosing their AMZ rides and depending on DHL (for now). I'm sure the parent company will someday come up with an additional contract or extension of their present customer base...but for now it's pretty gloom.
Obviously within the segment there is going to be some hierarchy. To keep on thread, the ATSG carriers are (IMO) on the lower end, although not the bottom. ATI is slaved to AMZ, ABX is loosing their AMZ rides and depending on DHL (for now). I'm sure the parent company will someday come up with an additional contract or extension of their present customer base...but for now it's pretty gloom.
02-26-2023, 05:24 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by Pumperpilot
The lesson in all of this is, certain carriers viewed themselves as Amazon and DHLs wives when in essence they were just the mistress...no true commitment only empty promises, false ideas about what the future holds. And they move on to the next and do the same thing all over again. Recognize the whipsaw game and dont sell each other out for a chance to ride in the front seat.
02-26-2023, 05:51 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,809
Originally Posted by PineappleXpres
Agreed. But even the regionals are paying. Hell froze over. The pigs are flying. The ACMI world may be next. Flying a 767 has never been a requirement for a destination carrier. Just saying. Amazon/et al will see the light if they haven’t already. ATSG is a contractor just like Mesa. Nothing more.
As is Hawaiian now!
02-26-2023, 06:27 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 834
Originally Posted by nitefr8dog
"ATSG is a contractor just like Mesa. Nothing more"
As is Hawaiian now!
As is Hawaiian now!
02-27-2023, 12:10 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,093
Originally Posted by PineappleXpres
At 150 bucks more an hour, 7 times the retirement DC, and under part 117. Pattern bargain up, strike, or resign.
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