To HerkDriver: Why I am Out of ALPA
08-18-2007, 05:07 PM
#51
...Whatever It Is!
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,680
See the following article for a history of how this came to be at:
http://www.foundationx.com/pilot/compete/
Bob
http://www.foundationx.com/pilot/compete/
Bob
Is the part where you were fired from Peoples Express in there?
08-18-2007, 05:11 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 137
The problem with the seniority system is there is not a better way. Once you begin arguing that night or any other factor should earn you more then the door is opened to: international is better or maybe it's alternate altimeter procedures get you more sick days. Perhaps it's the most ocean crossings should get a seniority bump. Or what about successful engine failure recoveries. Then should your military time and experience factor into the equation. If someone flies 30 combat sorties in a high threat environment while a FDX employ doesn't that move them up several rungs on the ladder. Even the lowly 72 guy flying the night death march could come up with a reason why there experience is worth more. Should we use the date you got you pilots license? Maybe the date you got your commercial ticket? Nothing is far but date of hire at your company defining your relative seniority at your company is by far the least random and means that everyone currently working at that company at least has that in common. And commonality is something that is needed for figuring out relative seniority.
Should we use international (time zones) vs. domestic? Sure. How about flight into hostile areas? Ok with me. We should use any rational criteria that enhances the sense of fairness in the system.
Pilots would still have first come, first choice in positions and trips, but the pay differentials would be based on criteria that is economically justifiable and not just based on date-of-hire. In other words, if you get stuck with the worse trips, you will at least be compensated accordingly for it. Very fair in everyone's mind.
A similar anaolgy would be found in a medical clinic where a family practicioner is hired in 2000 and a neurosurgeon is hired in 2005. Who is going to get paid a lot more, the family practioner because he was hired first? No, the neruosurgeon, because he has a much more difficult to attain skill set that economically justifies a higher salary.
At FedEx, most pilots possess a skill set that is readily transferable between airplanes, so it cannot be used to fully justify our differentials. We have to come up with rational differentials, otherwise, the junior pilots will take the senior pilots' positions as soon as the company give them the chance. This is exactly what happened with Age 60. It is as clear as day.
Taken to the extreme, if everyone were paid the same and did the same job, there would be little, if any, incentive to walk over another pilot for a job. But the way we are set up now, there is plenty of incentive. This is why Duane W. could not pull off an SOS even when pilot pensions were being decimated at many legacy carriers. It is the underlying knowledge that people will walk over their counterparts to get a better deal.
Remember the Delta pilots who were forced to leave early in order to protect their lump sums? They blamed ALPA for that. Subsequently, the working pilots were unable to pull off a work action to protect their pay because the early retirees would have come back and taken their seats. We saw this same thing at CAL when 450 Braniff "brethren" crossed our picket line and kept the airline running for Frank.
The FDA STV thing looks very unfair to the junior pilots who might serve there. And, it is. If we do this to someone, we better make it a good deal for them, even if it comes out of our pocket, or they will never forget it. This intra-profession competition has rarely been addressed by ALPA, so today we have an every-man-for-himself profession. Nobody denies that, do they? Either we make things fair or we lose.
Bob
Last edited by rjlavender; 08-18-2007 at 05:20 PM.
08-18-2007, 05:40 PM
#53
Slainge Var'
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Zeppelin Tail Gunner
Posts: 1,530
Please don't read too much into what I am saying. Companies and employees worldwide use nighttime differentials in pay to make things more fair and to give employees more choice in the matter. This makes sense and it happens all the time.
Should we use international (time zones) vs. domestic? Sure. How about flight into hostile areas? Ok with me. We should use any rational criteria that enhances the sense of fairness in the system.
Pilots would still have first come, first choice in positions and trips, but the pay differentials would be based on criteria that is economically justifiable and not just based on date-of-hire. In other words, if you get stuck with the worse trips, you will at least be compensated accordingly for it. Very fair in everyone's mind.
A similar anaolgy would be found in a medical clinic where a family practicioner is hired in 2000 and a neurosurgeon is hired in 2005. Who is going to get paid a lot more, the family practioner because he was hired first? No, the neruosurgeon, because he has a much more difficult to attain skill set that economically justifies a higher salary.
At FedEx, most pilots possess a skill set that is readily transferable between airplanes, so it cannot be used to fully justify our differentials. We have to come up with rational differentials, otherwise, the junior pilots will take the senior pilots' positions as soon as the company give them the chance. This is exactly what happened with Age 60. It is as clear as day.
Taken to the extreme, if everyone were paid the same and did the same job, there would be little, if any, incentive to walk over another pilot for a job. But the way we are set up now, there is plenty of incentive. This is why Duane W. could not pull off an SOS even when pilot pensions were being decimated at many legacy carriers. It is the underlying knowledge that people will walk over their counterparts to get a better deal.
Remember the Delta pilots who were forced to leave early in order to protect their lump sums? They blamed ALPA for that. Subsequently, the working pilots were unable to pull off a work action to protect their pay because the early retirees would have come back and taken their seats. We saw this same thing at CAL when 450 Braniff "brethren" crossed our picket line and kept the airline running for Frank.
The FDA STV thing looks very unfair to the junior pilots who might serve there. And, it is. If we do this to someone, we better make it a good deal for them, even if it comes out of our pocket, or they will never forget it. This intra-profession competition has rarely been addressed by ALPA, so today we have an every-man-for-himself profession. Nobody denies that, do they? Either we make things fair or we lose.
Bob
Should we use international (time zones) vs. domestic? Sure. How about flight into hostile areas? Ok with me. We should use any rational criteria that enhances the sense of fairness in the system.
Pilots would still have first come, first choice in positions and trips, but the pay differentials would be based on criteria that is economically justifiable and not just based on date-of-hire. In other words, if you get stuck with the worse trips, you will at least be compensated accordingly for it. Very fair in everyone's mind.
A similar anaolgy would be found in a medical clinic where a family practicioner is hired in 2000 and a neurosurgeon is hired in 2005. Who is going to get paid a lot more, the family practioner because he was hired first? No, the neruosurgeon, because he has a much more difficult to attain skill set that economically justifies a higher salary.
At FedEx, most pilots possess a skill set that is readily transferable between airplanes, so it cannot be used to fully justify our differentials. We have to come up with rational differentials, otherwise, the junior pilots will take the senior pilots' positions as soon as the company give them the chance. This is exactly what happened with Age 60. It is as clear as day.
Taken to the extreme, if everyone were paid the same and did the same job, there would be little, if any, incentive to walk over another pilot for a job. But the way we are set up now, there is plenty of incentive. This is why Duane W. could not pull off an SOS even when pilot pensions were being decimated at many legacy carriers. It is the underlying knowledge that people will walk over their counterparts to get a better deal.
Remember the Delta pilots who were forced to leave early in order to protect their lump sums? They blamed ALPA for that. Subsequently, the working pilots were unable to pull off a work action to protect their pay because the early retirees would have come back and taken their seats. We saw this same thing at CAL when 450 Braniff "brethren" crossed our picket line and kept the airline running for Frank.
The FDA STV thing looks very unfair to the junior pilots who might serve there. And, it is. If we do this to someone, we better make it a good deal for them, even if it comes out of our pocket, or they will never forget it. This intra-profession competition has rarely been addressed by ALPA, so today we have an every-man-for-himself profession. Nobody denies that, do they? Either we make things fair or we lose.
Bob
08-18-2007, 06:44 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 137
Sorry, you're late to the party. I covered that earlier in the thread. Now, don't you think you owe it to the readers to explain why I was fired? You don't want to simply be a character assassin who conveniently leaves out relevant facts, do you?
While you are at it, please state your name, credentials, and experience in standing up for your fellow employees, so that all readers may compare.
Basically, I am demonstrating what guys like you are made of. No ideas, just anonymous trash talk. BC was right. It damages the profession. You can do better than this.
Bob
While you are at it, please state your name, credentials, and experience in standing up for your fellow employees, so that all readers may compare.
Basically, I am demonstrating what guys like you are made of. No ideas, just anonymous trash talk. BC was right. It damages the profession. You can do better than this.
Bob
Last edited by rjlavender; 08-18-2007 at 07:44 PM.
08-18-2007, 07:31 PM
#55
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Sorry, you're late to the party. I covered that earlier in the thread. Now, don't you think you owe it to the readers to explain why I was fired? You don't want to simply be a character assassin who conveniently leaves out relevant facts, do you?
While you are at it, please state your name, credentials, and experience in standing up for your fellow employees, so that all readers may compare.
Basically, I am demonstrating what guys like you are made of. No ideas, just anonymous trash talk. BC was right. It damages the profession.
Bob
While you are at it, please state your name, credentials, and experience in standing up for your fellow employees, so that all readers may compare.
Basically, I am demonstrating what guys like you are made of. No ideas, just anonymous trash talk. BC was right. It damages the profession.
Bob
08-18-2007, 07:38 PM
#56
Part Time Employee
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Dispersing Green House Gasses on a Global Basis
Posts: 1,918
08-19-2007, 04:16 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 1559
Posts: 1,535
Probably the best solution to the seniority differential would be an "up or out" clause.
We aren't white collar. We are, pure and simple, LABOR. Union or no union, laborers are paid under a longevity system throughout the country.
Your example with the neurosurgeon is flawed. You need to understand that the piloting skill set isn't that unique between a new hire and a ten year employee.
In our situation, the Craftsman is paid more than the Laborer who gets more than the Apprentice. Within those classifications, the worker who carries the most gets paid the most.
Did you see the news item concerning American Eagle trying to help their senior pilot's find other jobs while hiring new pilots to fill the ranks? Is that much different than FedEx buying out senior managers? There are pay differentials for years of service everywhere.
I feel you are still smarting over the age 60 issues and you are trying to justify why you quit over the issue. You stuffed lockers, went directly to management and contacted the MEC. You were rebuffed at every point by the majority and you still don't get it. In your mind, you believe you are right and you will not consider that there is any possibility that you could be wrong, yet you want everyone else to reconsider their position and join you in your beliefs.
You have no credibility with the group that you are trying to influence. You are France to our USA. I know you will disagree and paint yourself as a noble Resistance Fighter. So be it. No one else sees you that way.
I really think you are starting to give non-members a bad name.
We aren't white collar. We are, pure and simple, LABOR. Union or no union, laborers are paid under a longevity system throughout the country.
Your example with the neurosurgeon is flawed. You need to understand that the piloting skill set isn't that unique between a new hire and a ten year employee.
In our situation, the Craftsman is paid more than the Laborer who gets more than the Apprentice. Within those classifications, the worker who carries the most gets paid the most.
Did you see the news item concerning American Eagle trying to help their senior pilot's find other jobs while hiring new pilots to fill the ranks? Is that much different than FedEx buying out senior managers? There are pay differentials for years of service everywhere.
I feel you are still smarting over the age 60 issues and you are trying to justify why you quit over the issue. You stuffed lockers, went directly to management and contacted the MEC. You were rebuffed at every point by the majority and you still don't get it. In your mind, you believe you are right and you will not consider that there is any possibility that you could be wrong, yet you want everyone else to reconsider their position and join you in your beliefs.
You have no credibility with the group that you are trying to influence. You are France to our USA. I know you will disagree and paint yourself as a noble Resistance Fighter. So be it. No one else sees you that way.
I really think you are starting to give non-members a bad name.
Last edited by MX727; 08-19-2007 at 08:30 AM. Reason: typo
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