|
UPS System Bid 08-101
Should read System Bid 08-101
20 74y Cpt Anc 31 74y F/o Anc 13 Md11 F/o Sdf -7 747 F/o Sdf -17 747 S/o Sdf -3 757 Cpt Sdfz -8 Md11 Cpt Sdf -3 757 Cpt Ont -6 747 Cpt Sdf |
Good numbers Charlie ... Thanks ...;)
Systemwide numbers: 64 vacancies (20 74Y Capt, 31 74Y FO, 13 MD11 FO) 44 displacements (eventually all fleets most likely) Let the System Bid Games begin ! :D :D |
Originally Posted by CactusCrew
(Post 327856)
Good numbers Charlie ... Thanks ...;)
Systemwide numbers: 64 vacancies (31 74Y Capt, 20 74Y FO, 13 MD11 FO) 44 displacements (eventually all fleets most likely) Let the System Bid Games begin ! :D :D |
Duh ...
Originally Posted by Nashmd11
(Post 327871)
It's 20 74Y Capt. and 31 74Y FO's- I like your version better.
You do know 5 out of 4 pilots suffer from dyslexia ... ;) :D |
It's actually worse than it looks. 20 Capt 74Y vacancies and 45 Capt displacements on the other fleets = net loss of 25 Capt positions system wide.
Then factor in the 17 747 FE's who definitely will get another shot up front, not to mention the DC-8 FE's who can hold 74Y Capt. Bottom line - you can figure a minimum of 45 current Capts losing their seat, potentially more. The ripple effect is going to be enormous. If you're junior, I hope you have a very understanding spouse. Gonna be ugly around here for a very long time! |
What are they trying to say about the engineers? I can't seem to figure that one out. Are they going to let the 63-65 747 engineers bypass bid, but not the -8 guys? And they're only going to let the -8 engineers upgrade at the company's discretion?
All I can say is.... no one come to the bus! The schedules are crappy and the plane is really really screwy. And don't forget the tail could fall off at any moment! |
Originally Posted by IPAMD11FO
(Post 327929)
It's actually worse than it looks. 20 Capt 74Y vacancies and 45 Capt displacements on the other fleets = net loss of 25 Capt positions system wide.
Then factor in the 17 747 FE's who definitely will get another shot up front, not to mention the DC-8 FE's who can hold 74Y Capt. Bottom line - you can figure a minimum of 45 current Capts losing their seat, potentially more. The ripple effect is going to be enormous. If you're junior, I hope you have a very understanding spouse. Gonna be ugly around here for a very long time! |
What they are saying is that if you are an 8 s/o you better bid for the open ANC slots now, or you may never make it back up front. They may be parking some eight's but they are not displacing off of it. So, get your capt. slots now old timers on the eight, because it may be a while before any vacancies come available.
I may add that nobody knows what is going to happen in a displacement. Too many variables to look at to guess what is going to happen. All I can say is that UPS has just made life and quality of life more difficult for I would guess 2/3 of the pilots. The next few years around here are not going to fun. |
Originally Posted by UPSFO4LIFE
(Post 327945)
What they are saying is that if you are an 8 s/o you better bid for the open ANC slots now, or you may never make it back up front. They may be parking some eight's but they are not displacing off of it. So, get your capt. slots now old timers on the eight, because it may be a while before any vacancies come available.
I may add that nobody knows what is going to happen in a displacement. Too many variables to look at to guess what is going to happen. All I can say is that UPS has just made life and quality of life more difficult for I would guess 2/3 of the pilots. The next few years around here are not going to fun. Only 2/3 's unhappy ... ? Who's the 1/3 that will be happy when it is over ? |
Originally Posted by brownwhalerider
(Post 327941)
I think you a partially right. However, it looks like a loss of 20 current captains and a gain of 20 74y captains. So that part is a wash,
This is the not the only number we should be worried about, as I described above. |
OK, maybe 2/3 was too low. Let's see, all the old dudes on the whale, umm.... some of the few 8 so's that are headed north..ummm OK, not many people happy. You know the saying, UPS is not happy until most the pilot group is not happy.
On a side note, I would really like to know the true cost of this displacement in $$$ vs no displacement and running a bit fat on certain fleets. I know UPS does not give a rats a$$, but the training cost alone has to be enormous. |
After having read all of this I know this might sound like a silly question, but does anyone know if UPS will even hire this year or when they might hire again
|
Your guess is as good as any. I would say no, due to all the people in the pool. I know the interview team has been disbanded to other positions if that tells you anything. With all the training that is about to take place, I would again say hiring is not going to happen this year.
|
The sky is not falling. This displacement will not effect my quality of life, because UPS does not own me. We will all show up and fly and do our jobs just like before. There may be a handful of junior ANC captains bumped, but any SDF capt should still be able to hold the left seat albeit in ANC. We'll see how it plays out. Until then, take a breath and be thankful for the job.
|
Originally Posted by IPAMD11FO
(Post 327929)
It's actually worse than it looks. 20 Capt 74Y vacancies and 45 Capt displacements on the other fleets = net loss of 25 Capt positions system wide.
Then factor in the 17 747 FE's who definitely will get another shot up front, not to mention the DC-8 FE's who can hold 74Y Capt. Bottom line - you can figure a minimum of 45 current Capts losing their seat, potentially more. The ripple effect is going to be enormous. If you're junior, I hope you have a very understanding spouse. Gonna be ugly around here for a very long time!
Originally Posted by UPSFO4LIFE
(Post 327955)
OK, maybe 2/3 was too low. Let's see, all the old dudes on the whale, umm.... some of the few 8 so's that are headed north..ummm OK, not many people happy. You know the saying, UPS is not happy until most the pilot group is not happy.
On a side note, I would really like to know the true cost of this displacement in $$$ vs no displacement and running a bit fat on certain fleets. I know UPS does not give a rats a$$, but the training cost alone has to be enormous. |
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
(Post 327974)
The DC-8 S/O's will get a shot at all SDF vacancies by seniority. They will get many by seniority by senior front seat holders taking the plunge to ANC. The 747 S/O's might. That drains all of the vacancy slots. The Displaced CAPTS will use seniority to bump in attempt to stay SDF Capt. S/O's can't get those, but it is a fast set of dominoes at this point.
Originally Posted by L'il J.Seinfeld
(Post 327970)
The sky is not falling. This displacement will not effect my quality of life, because UPS does not own me. We will all show up and fly and do our jobs just like before. There may be a handful of junior ANC captains bumped, but any SDF capt should still be able to hold the left seat albeit in ANC. We'll see how it plays out. Until then, take a breath and be thankful for the job.
Mgmt pilots are gonna love this too as they get to spend 25 days a month on the road! Might be a good time to join the IPA! :D |
What's amazing is that the most Junior Capt. on the MD-11 SDF will soon be a mid 1994 hire. Just a little while back it was 1998.
|
Originally Posted by Charlie Murphy
(Post 327842)
Should read System Bid 08-101
20 74y Cpt Anc 31 74y F/o Anc 13 Md11 F/o Sdf -7 747 F/o Sdf -17 747 S/o Sdf -3 757 Cpt Sdfz -8 Md11 Cpt Sdf -3 757 Cpt Ont -6 747 Cpt Sdf Also, how often do they run bids? Even after this upcoming displacement bid, how far in advance of the upcoming 767 deliveries will they have to run another bid for those aircraft? |
I thought in a realignment bid only those listed in seats to be realigned are able to bid on vacancies (i.e. 747 S/O but not DC8 S/O). Sure, in the displacement a senior DC8 S/O will be able to hold a front seat if he gets displaced... but there aren't any S/O positions listed in the displacement bid.
I think IPAMD11FO is right, but it is the 747 S/Os who are getting 1 shot to jump to the front again, and that's on the realignment bid only. |
Originally Posted by v2plus25
(Post 328053)
I thought in a realignment bid only those listed in seats to be realigned are able to bid on vacancies (i.e. 747 S/O but not DC8 S/O). Sure, in the displacement a senior DC8 S/O will be able to hold a front seat if he gets displaced... but there aren't any S/O positions listed in the displacement bid.
I think IPAMD11FO is right, but it is the 747 S/Os who are getting 1 shot to jump to the front again, and that's on the realignment bid only. The DC-8 FE's are the one's who only get one shot, since their fleet is not being realigned (yet). |
Originally Posted by L'il J.Seinfeld
(Post 327970)
The sky is not falling. This displacement will not effect my quality of life, because UPS does not own me. We will all show up and fly and do our jobs just like before. There may be a handful of junior ANC captains bumped, but any SDF capt should still be able to hold the left seat albeit in ANC. We'll see how it plays out. Until then, take a breath and be thankful for the job.
That is the attitude that UPS wants to hear. I am thankful for my job, but it doesn't mean I am happy to accept a move backwards in my QOL. No, the sky is not falling, but the possible domino affect that this displacement causes probably will affect you. Maybe you won't get the vacation you want. Maybe you are a lineholder now and get bumped back to RSV. Don't know what fleet you are on but the 75 domestic RSV lines are almost all 2 weeks on now. I also do not agree that some SDF Capt. will stay capt. The over 60 guys will most likely take the ANC slots leaving many SDF junior Capt. back to the right seat. Like I said before, to predict what will actually happen is almost impossible. I have already taken a deep breath, but I have gotten over just being thankfull for my job.:D |
Hmmmm...thinking hypothetically here...what if the over 60 crowd took all the ANC 400 Capt and F/O vacancies? What would scheduling do with those over 60 senior F/Os who can't be paired with an over 60 Capt for international flying?
|
Originally Posted by IPAMD11FO
(Post 328077)
You have it backwards. Anyone is eligible to bid the vacancies during the realignment bid and will be awarded in seniority order. Some 747 FE's may have a second chance at getting a front seat. For example, if only 10 747 FE's take a front seat during the realignment and the rest are taken by the -8 guys, 7 747 FE's will be displaced and can subsequently go to any seat they can hold.
The DC-8 FE's are the one's who only get one shot, since their fleet is not being realigned (yet). Also, the bid said they will displace up to those numbers. No guarantee they will. |
One thing is for sure. This is one of the most confusing bids I have seen. You have to read the thing 10 times just to comprehend half of what is going on. So I just re-read the thing again. This is an intersting statement.
Positions remaining in excess on the B-747 classic, B-757, and MD-11, with the exception of B-747 Second Officers, after the close of the realignment bid will be displaced in Displacement Bid 08-201. So blender might be right about those guys being stuck if they don't go north in the realignment bid. Those old guys gonna be ****ed if this is the case. |
Originally Posted by Swedish Blender
(Post 328127)
FWIW, I was talking to an ACP last night about the bid and he said over 60 FEs can only go to the front seat via vacancy not displacement. If the over 60 whale FEs don't bid a front seat on the realignment, they are trapped in the back of it or the OCHO. I'm sure someone will grieve it but that is what he said.
Originally Posted by UPSFO4LIFE
(Post 328145)
Positions remaining in excess on the B-747
classic, B-757, and MD-11, with the exception of B-747 Second Officers, after the close of the realignment bid will be displaced in Displacement Bid 08-201. |
Originally Posted by IPAMD11FO
(Post 328180)
As much as that would benefit me personally, that is not how it will work. Nor how it should work. I know about the M&I stuff, but the contract is pretty clear. UPS may try, but they will lose. Seniority is one of the few sacred items we have in this business. I don't want to toss it out for short term gain. Nor should anyone else.
1. UPS doesn't allow the over 60 guys to displace to the front seat. IPA gets a list, people submit grievances, tell the company there's a problem. Argue back and forth to a stalemate and finally decide to arbitrate it. So UPS loses and now has to pay those guys front seat pay. UPS drags it out but finally pays what they would have but saves the training cost. 2. UPS doesn't displace and just pays those guys to sit around at the FE rate instead of occurring training cycles and the higher pay/benefits. You're right, for seniority sakes, I hope it doesn't happen. |
Originally Posted by Swedish Blender
(Post 328127)
FWIW, I was talking to an ACP last night about the bid and he said over 60 FEs can only go to the front seat via vacancy not displacement. If the over 60 whale FEs don't bid a front seat on the realignment, they are trapped in the back of it or the OCHO. I'm sure someone will grieve it but that is what he said. I think UPS told 63-65 group are told they'll have to go to training to discourage them from bidding for the pay.
Also, the bid said they will displace up to those numbers. No guarantee they will. ACP a bit off, there are 17 747 S/O's being displaced. They have seniority magic. They can bid anywhere there seniority holds because of displacement. All (including age 63-65) DC-8 S/O's presently only have vacancy available to move forward. UPS is saying that if enough DC-8 S/O's move to the front (including 63-65 age group) in the ensuing vacancies, then they may BYPASS the 63-65 year old 747 S/O's for training, award them their new front seat for pay and leave them on the 74. Ultimately allowing UPS to slide them over to the 8. They will be unable to go front seat by the time this wreckage clears. There is no violation of seniority in this scenario. I fully expect to be purged from any Capt seat in SDF. I will use my seniority to stay SDF. (lucky) but like mentioned, we all feel the blast. (Vacations, line choice, etc) |
Originally Posted by UPSFO4LIFE
(Post 328078)
That is the attitude that UPS wants to hear. I am thankful for my job, but it doesn't mean I am happy to accept a move backwards in my QOL. No, the sky is not falling, but the possible domino affect that this displacement causes probably will affect you. Maybe you won't get the vacation you want. Maybe you are a lineholder now and get bumped back to RSV.
|
Originally Posted by Swedish Blender
(Post 328127)
FWIW, I was talking to an ACP last night about the bid and he said over 60 FEs can only go to the front seat via vacancy not displacement. If the over 60 whale FEs don't bid a front seat on the realignment, they are trapped in the back of it or the OCHO. I'm sure someone will grieve it but that is what he said. I think UPS told 63-65 group are told they'll have to go to training to discourage them from bidding for the pay.
Also, the bid said they will displace up to those numbers. No guarantee they will. This whole displacement/realignment/vacancy stuff is waaay too confusing for me. Maybe it's the pregnancy hormones but I just don't get it. :confused: |
Originally Posted by UPSFO4LIFE
(Post 328145)
So blender might be right about those guys being stuck if they don't go north in the realignment bid. Those old guys gonna be ****ed if this is the case.
I guess they will just have to "deal with it". LOL! |
I might need to go find my FE written results. :eek:
I think we all know how to fix this problem........I just hope we can stay united and be well informed from our leaders. What ever this company wants to do they will do. I just hope we can counter and flank "em". |
Originally Posted by Freightpuppy
(Post 328242)
So, an over 60 displaced FE off the whale cannot bump someone from the left seat?
This whole displacement/realignment/vacancy stuff is waaay too confusing for me. Maybe it's the pregnancy hormones but I just don't get it. :confused: It is only the 63-65 S/O's on the 74 that MAY not actually go to training and be pay protected as they bid the front seat. That would reduce only handful of bumps, the bigger impact is the drawdown on Capts and original vacancy in ANC (which is awarded in pure seniority order). Fact remains, alot more 74 displacement to happen by end of year. Round 2 yet unannounced will be more of the same. |
From ERJ Jay:
"Not to ask a dumb question, but aren't there 5 more MD11s coming this year? How can there be no vacancies on that fleet type (besides the SDF F/O)? Were you guys actually over staffed on that A/C that you could absorb 5 more and not need any more CAs? Also, how often do they run bids? Even after this upcoming displacement bid, how far in advance of the upcoming 767 deliveries will they have to run another bid for those aircraft?" They can drop the crew ratio on the MD-11. That's all I'll say. |
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
(Post 328292)
But a displacement allows them to bump by seniority into any seat they can hold.
I agree with you, if they displace from the panel. The thing is they don't have to displace FE's and the statement below leads me to believe they won't. If any over 60 guy wants a front seat, he will have to take it on the realignment bid.
Originally Posted by UPSFO4LIFE
(Post 328145)
Positions remaining in excess on the B-747 classic, B-757, and MD-11, with the exception of B-747 Second Officers, after the close of the realignment bid will be displaced in Displacement Bid 08-201.
|
Originally Posted by MoosePileit
(Post 328305)
From ERJ Jay:
"Not to ask a dumb question, but aren't there 5 more MD11s coming this year? How can there be no vacancies on that fleet type (besides the SDF F/O)? Were you guys actually over staffed on that A/C that you could absorb 5 more and not need any more CAs? Also, how often do they run bids? Even after this upcoming displacement bid, how far in advance of the upcoming 767 deliveries will they have to run another bid for those aircraft?" They can drop the crew ratio on the MD-11. That's all I'll say. That seems like a BIG problem to me. Is this the ONLY airline that works like that? |
Well folks we all knew it was coming. During the recent contract voting period many of us more senior people kept saying the same things over and over again. This contract is a turd and will only be realized when UPS figures out a way around it. The age 65 rule change only emphaizes it more. For those of you who had the "bonus blinders" on well I guess it's time to eat your cake now. For the 1/3rd of us at the top it will make no difference. We can just sit back and watch all the crap take place and smile knowing we tried to do what was right. As the company recently stated we will rely soley on the pilot group to continue to pick up large amounts of OT to save the system. Why create vacancies? Just simply short staff the airline and the vast majority will make it work. Makes me smile that I am on the first page of my bid sheet.
We told you so.... JMHO heavyjet |
Originally Posted by JustUnderPar
(Post 328359)
That seems like a BIG problem to me. Is this the ONLY airline that works like that? |
Originally Posted by heavyjetpilot
(Post 328450)
Well folks we all knew it was coming. During the recent contract voting period many of us more senior people kept saying the same things over and over again. This contract is a turd and will only be realized when UPS figures out a way around it. The age 65 rule change only emphaizes it more. For those of you who had the "bonus blinders" on well I guess it's time to eat your cake now. For the 1/3rd of us at the top it will make no difference. We can just sit back and watch all the crap take place and smile knowing we tried to do what was right. As the company recently stated we will rely soley on the pilot group to continue to pick up large amounts of OT to save the system. Why create vacancies? Just simply short staff the airline and the vast majority will make it work. Makes me smile that I am on the first page of my bid sheet.
We told you so.... JMHO heavyjet So displaced pilots couldn't bump in the last contract? What exactly did you tell us? What is your point exactly? |
Originally Posted by Freightpuppy
(Post 328451)
I think we are the only airline that works like this. Our union seems to want to do something about it but all's been quiet about that lately. Anyone have any latest and greatest with that issue?
Management pilots into the union is THE biggest issue facing this pilot group.....not people picking up open time....give me a break!! |
Originally Posted by heavyjetpilot
(Post 328470)
My point is that I tried my best to get the point across that there were many points of great concern in this contract and so many said it just wasn't so. 51% voted yes. Obviously you are an F/O and will be so considerbly longer. You will feel the impact of the contract, age 65 rule change, displacements...whatever else happens. For me about the only thing would be a total shutdown. Could it happen?. Hell yea. But until then I am safe. Many of my fellow more senior Capt.s have taken the attitude of well we tried to get everyone on the same page, nonone wanted to listen so ******em.
Let them eat the cake they bought. For me, I am still hoping for the Unity we once had. I believe that we will never be able to have a say in what goes on until this company feels it in the wallet. The first thing would be for a complete and honored days off program. Do you 75 hours and not one minute more. This isn't a OT ban, only a education process. I want you to upgrade and and anyone else who does. Until everyone is on the same page then my previous attitude applies. F-M Question: If all line holders just flew their schedule and nothing more; would the reserves not get abused (most fleets keep 20+% or more, wonder why??)....then the company would pull the ace and use management pilots to fly the lines (since they have no contract rights on hours).....proving nothing?? The problem lies in welcoming management pilots into the union....IMHO |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:22 PM. |
User Alert System provided by
Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) -
vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands