Illegal per the RLA as a group, but that's it. On an individual basis, there is not a gun to our head. There is nothing forcing us to pick up JA or open time. That should be the end of it, but for some reason, people still do it. We should not spend negotiating capital to demand that the sky be blue... uh.. I mean that we should not pick up open time...when it is painfully obvious we should not.

So in 2011, the company can announce whatever it wants, and not one minute of open time should be picked up...if we all had our heads on straight; and it would be legal.

Totally, completely, and in all other ways correct!

American Airlines concessionary contract of 2003 with the pilots hasn't been modified....with the exception of the usual sideletters to further clarify hate, mistrust, and discontent.

American was able to furlough approx 2,900 pilots-roughly the same size as the UPS pilot group. Approx. 1000 still have not received the call to return, mil. leave, or defer.

Although straying from the thread and the "Cargo" theme, American is the next large airline to hopefully complete contract negotiations. It will be interesting, at least to me, to see how American's financials are reported in the next year (i.e. we have no money, you get no raise, but we will still give bonuses to our execs.) and to see if the recall pipeline dries up and if the furlough word returns to the ranks at AA.

Bumpy Skies ahead,

FF

Respectfully, I agree with your statement but disagree with your comment being a mindset at least at UPS. The same mindset was present at Eastern, Pan Am, and TWA back in the day.

UPS wasn't always the cream of the crop as far as employment. Hard work, dilligent work, and some luck has moved UPS to front of the pack. Hopefully, the same good fortune and professionalism will tide UPS through the upcoming bumps in the road.

Dojet, I'm not personally going after you, not at all, it just worries me when I see many wasteful practices (I'm guilty as the next guy) and no real urgency to correct them.

Ok, back to my book, "Why birds can fly and pilots can't dance"

FF

OOOOHHHH now you've done it. You're really gonna **** off MH, JS, FF and a few others by saying anything good about this contract!!!! How dare you actually take reality into consideration? Don't you know that this pilot group actually believes that economic reality doesn't apply to them??? <G> To some, the wrong administration negotiated the contract. If the other team closed the same deal they would think it's just fine. Remember, politics and negotiations don't mix.

The individuals that you labeled in you post above are allowed to have an opinion and as a new guy I can say that my experience with these guys has been outstanding.

I run into guys all the time more worried about picking up open time than anything else. I guess pointing fingers is a close second.

The senior guys need to show some leadership and promote unity in the ranks.

Oh well, I guess I'm just an idealist.

"I run into guys all the time more worried about picking up open time than anything else."

Worried? Are you sure? The day the IPA says don't pick up open time, I'll stop picking up open time. Until then, it's pretty much my business as it's contractual. I was an F/O or F/E for 16 years at this company and never gave a crap about who picked up open time and when. I've been in the left seat for two years and I'll be darned if I'm going to give any mind to new F/O's who think their upward progression should by my primary concern in life. It's not and I hardly think it should be. The IPA has stuck together and had great unity when necessary. I'm proud of that and will do more than my part as I've done in the past. I've walked a picket line at BFI and served the union as a volunteer. I don't think I own anything to new F/O's when it comes to not picking up open time so they can have faster upward progression. If that's what YOU need to feel like the IPA is unified, then I think you are asking for a bit much....

This isn't directed anyone in particular. I'm just tired of the "don't pick up open time so I can upgrade faster" crowd.

I have immense respect for both T. and B, worked for both at the IPA and still work in committee. Had many civil disagreements however with both as well. It's business, Haven't launched personal attacks since it is completely counterproductive. OTOH, one must realize that negotiations are a compromise. It is healthy to objectively recognize its strength and weakness'. In that, opinions may differ as to the future impact. That is normal. I find many positive aspects to the contract. The sleep rooms in SDF is one. I find them above expectations. Good job to the negotiators. Many like preferencing, etc. I have never complained about our pay rate, etc. Still we did take some backward steps. Way it is. Facts are facts. I support our CBA since it is all we have. Unity is important because it actually works.

Regarding OT, it is contractual and anyone is free to have at it, it is naive however to deny the effects of thousands of hours of OT pickup has on the dynamics of our relationship with our employer. Our actions groom them, and UPS' actions groom us. (Reason I don't worry about there ineptitude in managing the employees/business and wasting money. We (UPS) are clearly not immune to financial market conditions, but I cannot control UPS, they clearly do not like line input on management affairs. I have an alternative if they go the direction they eventually will. Afterall, domestic volume shrank during our 100th anniversary. Meanwhile, I hope we quit beating each other up over issues that are already decided and look to a strategy of improving our futures. Our committee already has produced several openers for 2011 based on lessons learned already. That is productive for all.

I agree - it's funny, just a few days ago my buddy and I were talking about the very same thing and basically we both agreed that we’re glad we got the contract when we did but most of all that it's a "long term" contract - I'd hate for us to be negotiating again in 2-3 years again - I think the economy will still be pretty weak and it’d make negotiating really difficult... Just my worthless 1¢

"I'll be darned if I'm going to give any mind to new F/O's who think their upward progression should by my primary concern in life. It's not and I hardly think it should be."

Your comments only help prove my point about leadership and unity.

It is ignorant to think this is about "FO" quality of life or upgrade. Its broader in scope than that and SaltyDog has hit the nail on the head with his comments. FOs aren't the only ones that understand this.

I could care less when I upgrade. Thanks to you and many other IPAers I will be compensated fairly regardless of my seat. Thank You for that.

Please don't marginalize me or anyone else's comments because of seat or years of service with this company. We all have our own "How I became a UPS Pilot story". There is a wealth of knowledge and experience found everywhere in this pilot group.

You owe me nothing. I do however appreciate leadership I can respect even when we agree to disagree.