Excess FDX
 

So if there is an excess of 50 in your seat and you sit 70 from the bottom are you safe? Or do the secondaries create more than 50?

Well, if a bunch of super-senior DC10 types excess themselves into your seat ahead of you, you could be SOL, at least the way I read it.

Actually there may be a silver lining in all of this...The over 60's who had no intent on moving out of the S/O' seat in the 10 and 27 will be saying see yaa! Plus, this will finally close the door on those wanting to come back to the S/O panels even after age 65. READ : Lots of old guys retiring NOW!!!! Enjoy your retirement!:D

How do you figure that?

Most of those guys either a) have no life and therefore wanted to keep flying but couldn't do it in any seat, therefore had to go to the panel or b) went to the panel hoping the rule would change and then would go back to their Captain's seat.

This should be interesting either way.

WM

WM,

Simple; The remaining over 60's that couldn't get a class I to hold drivers seats will have no choice in the 10 but to retire. The others that may not have wanted to or couldn't 'complete' Captain upgrade are in the same boat. Easiest thing for them to do at this point is retire. My second point about not coming back to any engineer seat after 65 is due to the current excess bid in those seats. In past practice, the Company would allow this to occur even though no Vacancy Bid existed and set a precedence. Now however there exists a new set of circumstances that would give the Company relief to change the process. After all, aren't we "overmanned"? I find it hard to believe they would allow over 65's to come back to a seat that is being excessed or eliminated.

Well, then keep watching! :(

But I hope you're right!

Haven't seen this before, but if I read the contract correctly, you're safe as a 72 SO because even if you can't hold anything else (they can't force you to HKG), you'll still be a 72 SO no matter how many they excess.

SG

Wouldn't they have to do another excess in that seat if they determined it was way too full? In other words there is no limit to how many can excess into a seat (except FDA) just that all inbounds are senior to the bottom guy currently holding.

Okay okay. All good info. I don't have firm numbers on how many geezers can't hold a Class 1. So maybe that's a player.

All I really care about is: What does this mean to ME!!!? (This is me joking around).

Wildmanny :D

I'll call a spade a spade, and I have to say the junior folks at this company, and I mean JUNIOR need to thank P Cassel for these words:

"no pilot will be furloughed as a result of this excess."

Gotta call it like it is. I think the company could easily put 100 or so on the street. My hat's off to them for not doing it (wait, I don't wear a hat here, that was another airline!)

777
 

I personally think the company should have posted for 777 crews on this excess. That way they would know what other seats will be driving the exodus to the 777 and consequently if they are going to need to excess further.

They could have just posted training dates of a year or a year and half from now.

IMHO

DC10 SOs can choose 727 SO in this bid. The contract allows it.

guys who reach the mandatory age have contractually been able to move from CA or FO to SO without any bid at all for some time.

The contract says an excess bid may be increased in size if bubbas move into one of the excessed seats during the shuffle.

My question is--

If a bunch of excessed folks choose Airbus FO in this particular bid, can there be an excess in that seat added to the mix as a result of it?

Also, I think the company is planning on many DC10 SOs moving to 727 SO. That is why there is an excess bid for 727 SO. The company is hoping some of the more senior under 65 crowd will move up and out of the 727 SO seat

They will just add more excess positions, sort of a "Secondary Excess." See Section 26.C.6.c.

c. If an excessed pilot is awarded or assigned a crew position that is also in excess, the number of pilots to be excessed from that crew position may be increased accordingly; provided, however, no pilot may be awarded or assigned a crew position at an FDA base that would cause an excess at that base.

So if say, 10 very junior DC10 SOs can only hold the FO seat on the 727, then the Company effectively will end up excessing 60 727 FOs.

I also agree with Gunter on the over 65 types. Even with the excess, there will be about 215 727 SOs. Plenty of room for the over 65 types and others who can't hold an appropriate medical. In the future, the newhire position will be 757 or 727 FO (I'm betting there are still some Jurassic Jets around in 10 years.)

[QUOTE=Gunter;364884]I agree, but my point is that those that have been sitting in the DC10 seat for awhile and find themselves to be of an age that allows them to take a retirement, without penalty (60 or older) will probably opt to retire faced with this excess vs re-training in the 72. (Tougher job, no reclining or electric seat and more than one leg per night.)

Really??Tell me what section of the contract says that a pilot who no longer qualifies due to age is contractually allowed to bid to an Engineer seat with an absence of a Vacancy Posting in that position...I'll save you the time, its Not there! This "practice" has been allowed as I said because a precedence was set a long time ago.



It probably could generate a separate Bid following this one if the Company felt the need to re-align. But ask yourself why is the Company doing this? Trying to save money and reduce cost. So if you get a little fat in some lower paying seats and some others choose to retire vs retrain then mission accomplished! You can only push out after excessing. Hopefully that wont be the case.

41 CDG CA and 28 CDG FO awards were just canceled.

Do these guys and gals want still want to move, or will they stay where they are at?


What I see for FOs and SOs --

DC-10 SOs going down to 727 SO. Perhaps a high number like 40-54. I bet they move with their schedules getting so bad.

Tons of DC-10 FO's going to MD11 or Airbus. I bet not many lower seniority DC10 SO's will get a chance to move. They will get trumped by the older volunteer excess folks. I don't know if the Airbus can handle all the bodies but the MD could make use of quite a few. Can we have a follow on excess bid out of the wide FO seats?

A significant numer of 727 FOs may go to Airbus or MD. They know it will be their last chance for awhile. But I may underestimate their dedication to the Boeing QOL. This will interesting.

I didn't think the company would do a 727 SO excess. But looking at things long term it is smart because it will help plus up all the FO seats closer to the level that the 727 SO seat is plussed up. This makes the most sense to me.

I wish I knew if any 727 FOs will be excess down to the 727 SO seat. It depends on how much of a bubble the company wants in the SO seat. Does the company want any bubbles or do they want even manning?

Wouldnt the Company want to get as many of the junior 72 FOs back to SO to reduce passover pay?

Try Section 24.E.6. smart guy.

I have found that a little research before shooting off my mouth is a necessity around here.

23 A 2c

Either way....you're quite the tool.

If the excess bid included Airbus FO and MD 11 FO I would say yes. Then we would see guys getting excessed down to 727 FO while guys moved up and the net result would be the most junior getting bumped off the bottom to 727 SO.

But MD11 FO and Airbus FO seats are not getting excessed. Looks like senior 727 FOs, DC10 FOs, and maybe even junior DC10 SO's will be packing those seats with bodies.

I predict much fewer than 50 727 FOs get bumped off the bottom.

Sorry you have the beak about that. Kinda like losing your medical. It's not standard for us to downgrade, only upgrade. It's been a great boon for our newhires for many years so they can jump over these guys on the way to FO.

As unhappy as I am about retro, I still think it's right to flow into the back at any time. For you to want to remove that privilege because the contract doesn't have firm language is just plain mean. Kinda like how the non-members think we ought furlough so they can get a higher BLG and carryover on their schedules.

So if a pilot is excessed backwards, those receiving passover pay because of that pilot's previous seat position no longer receive passover?

Can't see it any other way. Call MaryNelle if you want the final word.

"For you to want to remove that privilege because the contract doesn't have firm language is just plain mean."

What would you say about pilots with at least 25 years in at FedEx, that made WB Capt 5 years earlier due to Age 60, now forcing everyone else to go backwards because they don't want to take the retirement we negoitiated for them?

I agree with your analysis. I think company wants level manning (especially in HKG), but if they're stuck with a bubble then they'll want it in their least costly seat. Doubt if many 72FO's will go down to SO; I think many of the senior guys will jump ship like you say and the more junior FO's will consider going to ANC (if they can hold it). So the bottom guys should be safe; however, if they do go down to SO, they'll just be sitting reserve and never getting called because we'll still be fat in that seat (no furloughs). Even if they decide to have another excess, the 72SO seat will only get fatter. That is unless some are crazy enough to bid HKG...SG

You make a good case for living in domicile. Now that's just plain mean!:D

2 wrongs don't make a right.

Good Question
 

I've flown with several dudes the past few months who are in that situation, except they've been here over 30 years and plan to stick around to "get one more type rating" in the 777. YGBSM right? They are'nt getting just one more type rating, they are taking a pass on the best retirement remaining in the industry and screwing the junior guys in the process so they can work at 1/2 pay. I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

In answer to your question, I really don't know what to say. I hate to talk about in the jet because my blood pressure gets too high. I had one of these guys tell me "don't worry, you're getting the same deal I am." How's that? By waiting an extra 3-4 years to upgrade and than choosing to work past 60 so I can earn what I would have had things not changed. It's fuzzy math at best, and the bottom line is these guys are just being greedy.

Period, Dot, EOS....

Jolly,
I agree with you 100%!

My question is why are we excessing from the 727/So position. It is the lowest paying job in the company and now we are giving the opportunity for guys that essentially work for free (J Lewis and friends) to move into wide body captain positions? I realize 727 Seconds are overmanned, but don't you think every position will be after the -10 excess?

This excess bid for any position other than the DC-10 is ridiculous...

Understood. I didn't say I agreed with the first point. I was just wondering how you would characterize someone with a full retirement actually forcing others to sacrifice for them if you thought a poster making suggestion was being mean! I think his point was if FedEx and ALPA had not allowed this to begin with the problem we face now would be less severe. I really can't imagine these over 60 guys thinking they are coming back to the same job they left. It's not like everyone below them getting screwed for their sake will wave welcome banners when they hit the line again. I think there will be a lot of slam clicking on layovers very soon and new watering holes for those who were on the losing end of this whole deal.

I agree.

BTW, they really don't buy the garbage they are floating about "it will be good for you too". They know it sucks.

My point is that it is right to let a guy flow back when he becomes unable to hold FO or CA. I don't want to throw anyone out on the street.

Going back the other way is a different issue altogether. I did not address that issue.

I'm not going to worry about the independent contractors, non-members and others who are only out for themselves. I do everything I can to guard against their malfeasance but I want to treat everyone with some civility.

"My point is that it is right to let a guy flow back when he becomes unable to hold FO or CA. I don't want to throw anyone out on the street."

I'm with ya man. I also don't want to see anyone forced out of a seat either.

See Jolly you still don't think like an airline pilot. Many of these dudes have 1 or 2 ex wives with lawyers sitting around waiting to collect their share of the retirement money. The wives get 0 now but up to 50% of the retirement check.

It is not the lowest paying job. I will bet there are 50 guys in the back collecting passover. If they pass on a chance to bid up they will lose their passover.

Maybe I missed it but I don't see where the contract discusses excessing from a position and concurrently allowing age restricted pilots to back fill those positioned without a vacancy posting?

What are your thoughts?

I agree. If we're overmanned in the S/O position, then secondary fills should eliminate the overage. But now, all the senior guys (over 60) can get any seat they could previously hold , instead of being able to hold what is available.

I would think Section 23.A.2. applies.

2. Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 23.A.1. and B.1., the following apply to a pilot subject to a regulated age restriction:


a. If the pilot is involuntarily excessed from his current crew position and, as a result of his restriction, he is ineligible to be awarded or assigned any other crew position, the pilot may be furloughed.


b. The pilot may be bypassed on recall from furlough until there is an available crew position that he is eligible to be awarded or assigned.


c. A restricted pilot who cannot move to or be accommodated as a second officer from another crew position because his relative seniority is less than the current population of second officers or there are no second officer crew seats, shall be offered the opportunity to retire as provided in the Agreement. Following a pilot's rejection of the offer, the pilot shall be released from employment as provided in Section 22.B.1., and shall not be considered as having been furloughed in cases where the only crew status the pilot can occupy is second officer.




So, if the guy turning 65 is less senior than the bottom 727 SO and the company doesn't wish to stretch the manning situation to accomodate him, he gets to retire. Since the bottom SO is the most junior guy in the company, at least for now, this doesn't seem a likely scenario. I think the SO manning will be stretched. Now, since that's Flt Mgts call, if the guy already has 26-30 years with the company, their answer may be something different.

Not the ones who bid out on 08-01, they no longer have excess privileges ! If they can hold a primary (none in the WB) or secondary (there will be none in the WB) then they can bid another seat. Otherwise their seat for this bid is the one they held on the last bid.

No one could have guessed the excess out of the 727 SO seat. They played their cards as best they could.

True statement, just providing the facts. It means there are less of the senior > 60 crowd that will have the ability to move into the seats they once held. No primary vacancies and no hope for secondary vacancies equates to no where for them to go other than the 757 CA slot if they can hold it. It actually provides a better chance for some of the mid range SO's to move into the WB FO seat.