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06-06-2008 | 08:34 PM
#61
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From: 777 Multi-tasker
Roberto, you know not of what you speak. I've listened to DW in person claim that he was involved in ensuring retroactivity found it's way into the legislation. So if he's lying or taking credit where none is due, then he brings the ire upon himself.
His words "no one get's left behind" are in sharp contrast to what is happening at FX--which is excess bid after excess bid until guys who were once WB FOs will end up NB SOs. Now he speaks of "shared sacrifice". Shared sacrifice my a**. The only ones doing the sacrificing are the junior guys so that a bunch of NDs can come back to window seats.
Also, have you seen the price of oil lately? or numbers on the economy? Once furlough proof FX isn't looking so ironclad. Here's a quiz for you genius--If the company decides to furlough, where are those guys going to come from? From the 500 NB SOs of which we need maybe 200? or the NDs with window seats having there cake and eating it too? Where's the shared sacrifice going to be then? Ya' think a bunch of NDs are going to jump on the grenade and say "no, no, take me instead!" Think again.
You may know plenty about the legislation, but you don't know d*** about FX or DW or what's transpired over here at purple. So go back to your brown hole and crack a six of Ensure. Maybe that'll help ease your delusions that you're somehow omniscient.
His words "no one get's left behind" are in sharp contrast to what is happening at FX--which is excess bid after excess bid until guys who were once WB FOs will end up NB SOs. Now he speaks of "shared sacrifice". Shared sacrifice my a**. The only ones doing the sacrificing are the junior guys so that a bunch of NDs can come back to window seats.
Also, have you seen the price of oil lately? or numbers on the economy? Once furlough proof FX isn't looking so ironclad. Here's a quiz for you genius--If the company decides to furlough, where are those guys going to come from? From the 500 NB SOs of which we need maybe 200? or the NDs with window seats having there cake and eating it too? Where's the shared sacrifice going to be then? Ya' think a bunch of NDs are going to jump on the grenade and say "no, no, take me instead!" Think again.
You may know plenty about the legislation, but you don't know d*** about FX or DW or what's transpired over here at purple. So go back to your brown hole and crack a six of Ensure. Maybe that'll help ease your delusions that you're somehow omniscient.
Ocean... you gotta quit holding it in.. it's just not healthy.... you need to just let it out and express yourself... this holding back isn't good for anyone.
06-06-2008 | 09:50 PM
#62
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From: MD-11 FO
Not exactly what I had in mind when the union asked "If it looks inevitable that the law will change, do you want ALPA involved" on their survey. The idea being that ALPA involvement would somehow help MITIGATE some of the negative impact. The exact opposite is true. We got the one-two punch: change age 60 AND stick it to us with retroactivity.
OBTW, thank you for that wonderful enlightenment on the whole junior versus senior thing. I hadn't quite figured it out till you mentioned it. If you read between the lines, one of my points is the "shared sacrifice" will be "shared" only by the junior folks (and especially "shared" if they end up on furlough), not the NDs.
Last edited by Oceanside11; 06-06-2008 at 10:07 PM.
06-06-2008 | 10:13 PM
#63
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From: MD-11 FO
06-07-2008 | 12:02 AM
#64
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From: 767 Cap
OBTW, thank you for that wonderful enlightenment on the whole junior versus senior thing. I hadn't quite figured it out till you mentioned it. If you read between the lines, one of my points is the "shared sacrifice" will be "shared" only by the junior folks (and especially "shared" if they end up on furlough), not the NDs.
When all is said and done the CBA says "the Company shall furlough pilots in reverse order of system seniority." Every carrier with a contract does it that way. If it's you who goes, you have my sympathy, but that's about it. I will have already given up approximately 30% of my income (reduced BLG) plus probable downgrades. That's about all I'm willing to give. And if you think that's unfeeling, well come talk to me after 3 furloughs and 2 chapter 11s, and I might have a little more sympathy.
06-07-2008 | 12:25 AM
#65
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From: Great White North
Well, doesn't having everyone down at a 48/60 hr Min BLG sound like shared sacrifice. This has to be done prior to a furlough. After that, yes junior guys will get furloughed. It's a fact of life. At airlines with pilot unity, working pilots have contributed to help out furloughed pilots with expenses, like health insurance COBRA payments. Of course, it might be expecting a little much to ask that out of individuals whom you (collective "you," not you in particular) have spent the last year insulting, name-calling and demanding they leave.
When all is said and done the CBA says "the Company shall furlough pilots in reverse order of system seniority." Every carrier with a contract does it that way. If it's you who goes, you have my sympathy, but that's about it. I will have already given up approximately 30% of my income (reduced BLG) plus probable downgrades. That's about all I'm willing to give. And if you think that's unfeeling, well come talk to me after 3 furloughs and 2 chapter 11s, and I might have a little more sympathy.
When all is said and done the CBA says "the Company shall furlough pilots in reverse order of system seniority." Every carrier with a contract does it that way. If it's you who goes, you have my sympathy, but that's about it. I will have already given up approximately 30% of my income (reduced BLG) plus probable downgrades. That's about all I'm willing to give. And if you think that's unfeeling, well come talk to me after 3 furloughs and 2 chapter 11s, and I might have a little more sympathy.
06-07-2008 | 01:28 AM
#67
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From: MD-11 FO
Well, doesn't having everyone down at a 48/60 hr Min BLG sound like shared sacrifice. This has to be done prior to a furlough. After that, yes junior guys will get furloughed. It's a fact of life. At airlines with pilot unity, working pilots have contributed to help out furloughed pilots with expenses, like health insurance COBRA payments. Of course, it might be expecting a little much to ask that out of individuals whom you (collective "you," not you in particular) have spent the last year insulting, name-calling and demanding they leave.
When all is said and done the CBA says "the Company shall furlough pilots in reverse order of system seniority." Every carrier with a contract does it that way. If it's you who goes, you have my sympathy, but that's about it. I will have already given up approximately 30% of my income (reduced BLG) plus probable downgrades. That's about all I'm willing to give. And if you think that's unfeeling, well come talk to me after 3 furloughs and 2 chapter 11s, and I might have a little more sympathy.
When all is said and done the CBA says "the Company shall furlough pilots in reverse order of system seniority." Every carrier with a contract does it that way. If it's you who goes, you have my sympathy, but that's about it. I will have already given up approximately 30% of my income (reduced BLG) plus probable downgrades. That's about all I'm willing to give. And if you think that's unfeeling, well come talk to me after 3 furloughs and 2 chapter 11s, and I might have a little more sympathy.
I think the first two respondents to your post illustrate the seniority system quite well, don't you?
Back to my Sanka.
(just for you jagplt)
06-07-2008 | 03:41 AM
#68
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Why are we 'under-60' types so pi$$ed? Because every single over-60 type came into this job knowing they had to retire at 60. They advanced through their careers because those before them left at 60. Our over-60s have received an unexpected windfall at the expense of those junior to them and I'm sure they are not concerned one bit about the junior pilot that's trying to support a young family.
If we furlough, do you think for one minute that those NDs will forgo draft pay if it's offered? Many of them are non-members anyway.
I find myself quickly becoming an age-ist!
If we furlough, do you think for one minute that those NDs will forgo draft pay if it's offered? Many of them are non-members anyway.
I find myself quickly becoming an age-ist!
06-07-2008 | 08:03 AM
#69
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Well, doesn't having everyone down at a 48/60 hr Min BLG sound like shared sacrifice
Absolutely, if it's settled that the company can only build lines to 48/60 +13 vs. building them like they do now as long as they stay within 13CH. In that case all that would change for most fleets is a slightly lower RLG.
At airlines with pilot unity, working pilots have contributed to help out furloughed pilots with expenses, like health insurance COBRA payments.
If it's you who goes, you have my sympathy, but that's about it.
And if you think that's unfeeling, well come talk to me after 3 furloughs and 2 chapter 11s, and I might have a little more sympathy.
Again with the sympathy. Many of us have walked a similar road, but most of us don't want to see that happen again to anybody or use it as some badge of honor. Why would you want to have someone go through what you have in order to receive some understanding sympathy?
Btw, weren't the one a year or so ago that said retirements had no significant effect on movement/furlough padding and that only growth did? How's that working out?
06-07-2008 | 09:02 AM
#70
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From: Zeppelin Tail Gunner
So....if all the over 60 S/Os on this excess bid had 2 choices, retire or check out in the back of the Whistling Sh1thouse, how many do you think would go to 727 S/O training? 75%, 50%, 25%? My guess is the training department would find a lot of guys going out sick the day before their training started and retiring the day they got well (or sick time ran out...or both). Would mitigate some of the problem.
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