Originally Posted by viktorbravo (Post 469623)

The top of the captain pay scale in the newest contract just barely kept pace with inflation from the 1998 contract. Run the numbers and you will agree. FO pay got boosted quite a bit, and it needed to be boosted because FO pay was a serious B scale on how it was figured under the 98 contract. The captains basically got a COLA raise in the last contract, no mas.

Or maybe you guys are arguing about something completely different in which case, Im all effed up.........:-)

Originally Posted by viktorbravo (Post 469623)

The top of the captain pay scale in the newest contract just barely kept pace with inflation from the 1998 contract. Run the numbers and you will agree. FO pay got boosted quite a bit, and it needed to be boosted because FO pay was a serious B scale on how it was figured under the 98 contract. The captains basically got a COLA raise in the last contract, no mas.

Or maybe you guys are arguing about something completely different in which case, Im all effed up.........:-)

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE (Post 469633)

VB - I do see your point – however what I am saying is that if a 40 year old (average age in my class) was hired in the last year or so, why would he/she want the captain pay to go up in our next contract rather than the fo pay if they know they won't be in the left seat (due to the Dec 13th law) for at least 15 years or so?

In other words, wouldn't it make sense for them to be asking for the FO pay to go up to let's say 70% of the captains' pay?

Hey seriously - keep your body from hitting the floor all over again... :D

Originally Posted by SaltyDog (Post 469604)

Not kidding, you yourself just demonstrated that apathy is more prevalent than division. Correct, It is pathethic our apathy at the union meetings. However, it is able to be fixed. How? First, the EB has 2 meetings 8 hours apart every so often and expect high turnout? They need to have them 2 weeks in a row. That way they capture much more audience. Second, they need to have folks helping guide them out of the rat maze at SDF. As it is, they have no schedule. Sure, we are all frownups, but if an ANC or ONT pilot shows up, haven't been in SDF in awhile, they are not going to risk going through all the unkowns to attend the meeting during the sort. That is my empirical observations from questions I've asked. Administrative resolution would help folks choose to attend. The CB vote too is indicative of poor presentation by the EB IMO. The EB is invisible where it counts, on the line and at the sorts. Fix that visibility and would bet that folks would be more involved. It is a flesh and blood business being a union. Emails/websites and all are good, but if it is all faceless and electronic, am not surprised apathy sets in. Reason early IPA was so successful was it was personable and personal. You know that, I saw the end of that as a newhire. Now we are electronic and impersonal. We watch all our folks go to ANC and we rarely if ever really capture there personal attention.
Regarding pay, your Capt argument used to be true. No longer. The reality is, took me 10 years to make Capt (first available upgrade). That was before 65, and ANC domicile. Excepting the aberration of opening ANC, the move to the left seat is closer to the 13-15 year point. 65 assured that reality. Also, our demographic while opening ANC was hiring older folks in late 30's all the way to 50+ since UPS needed widebody experience to appease the FAA. Lots of furloughed folks from the legacies and you have a chopped up career like many of us have had. These folks will be F/O's much longer than they will be Capts. You want unity? Tell these 40-45 year olds hired in the last 2 years that they should support higher Capt pay using your argument. The reponse is predictable. <g>

Originally Posted by 757upspilot (Post 469690)

I spent years working with the IPA, was willing to go to the mat for pilots regardless of seat or seniority, this last contract it became obvious that the junior pilots where not willing to do that for the rest of us.
I am counting on the same bunch to throw the rest of us under the train the next time.
We don't have a union anymore , we have an office with people sitting in it.

I got my answer.

There is division, not apathy, we no longer care about what the other guy needs, go take to someone besides your constituents.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog (Post 469714)

Again, we agree more than we disagree, 56% that voted for the CBA included many Capts. Don't see how you can make a claim that F/O's alone threw us under the bus. Also agree that several F/O's were very immature and divisive and patently incorrect on the line and B&G. Not unique as several Capts were immature, divisive and patently incorrect. Hope you don't take all the marbles and go home, there are many who still can benefit from your leadership. We need it in the challenging times ahead!

Originally Posted by 757upspilot (Post 469690)

I got my answer.

There is division, not apathy, we no longer care about what the other guy needs, go take to someone besides your constituents.

Originally Posted by Sideshow Bob (Post 469746)

Salty:

IMO more voted yes based on fear than they did based on the TA meeting their requirements. You and I lived under the M-scale that none of the new guys will have to, and we'll never get that money back, plus since no matter what we would like to believe as far as UPS is concerned (not me BTW) money is an inclusive pie. When UPS said if the F/O's get more captains get less I said get more pie, but we all know how it really works with them. Hence fixing the M-scale did in reality come out of our pockets, and those pockets are not endlessly deep. In '98 the captain's got the biggest bump, in the latest the F/O's did. If history is any indication....well ;)

Originally Posted by SaltyDog (Post 469755)

Sideshow,
Probably recall I was also a vocal opponent of the CBA, but not for the money reasons. Definitley fear won the day. Posted the RLA timeline and we were barely into the real muscle of our options. Oh well, we blinked.
Also have stated on the B&G, it is time to rally the IPA and support the CBA. Othewise 2012+ will see a resounding repeat as 757upspilot fears. I'm an optimist. Time to get the momentum sooner than later. Glad we currently have more than one running for each position. Start in the right direction <g>
Hope all well! One of our classmates heading up to you in Jan.

Originally Posted by 757upspilot (Post 469690)

I spent years working with the IPA, was willing to go to the mat for pilots regardless of seat or seniority, this last contract it became obvious that the junior pilots where not willing to do that for the rest of us.
I am counting on the same bunch to throw the rest of us under the train the next time.
We don't have a union anymore , we have an office with people sitting in it.