UPS757,

You have some good points in regards to your pay analysis. I do not disagree that junior capt's in particular got the short end of the stick in this contract.

However, you are not the only one who feels like they got screwed. I can't tell you how many times I have heard an over 60 crewmember say the junior guys stole their retirement, or if they got the same deal Fed Ex had they would be gone by now. Well, how many FedEx guys stuck around?

I hear some F/O's complain we got screwed too, 5 more years in the right seat. It is in many respects very relative to your position. Most of the folks on property understand the F/O scale was extremely out of balance and had to be fixed. The survey also indicated this. I also believe many F/O's are humbled by the fact they know their pay raise came at the expense of Capt's getting a COLA increase. No matter how you feel about the contract, it is done. We as a group must look forward to the next round of very tough negotiations against a very astute team of opponents.

My point of this rant is your comments on this board do nothing to pull our group together. Your blame of "junior" pilots (whom most come from other carriers) is hypocritical at best. The apathy around the IPA is mind numbing, but it is your type of attitude that is pushing people out rather than getting them to think and engage. In any case, look around, you are in a much better position than 99 percent of America. Rant Off.

I agree with you.

If guys well over 60 are coming back from the dead, I don't see anybody leaving as they turn 60. A friend that has been here since '88 told me how he would leave as soon as he turns 60 in a few years, is now telling me he is intending to stay past 60.

People can talk all they want, but when the time comes and they see $$$$$, they ain't gonna walk away.

Since age 65 came into effect, I've moved up about 3 numbers, but that's from guys dying.

Greed a powerful force.

C'mon Please,

The debate over age 65 and the current contract are over. I was vocal against age 65 before the law changed, but it changed. The focus is not about greed anymore it is the law.
I was vocal against this contract, it passed, move on.
We are killing each other but we are supposed to be on the same team. The key now, it seems to me, is to create a forum to improve our current contract on the next go around. The people going to the table will need our support. We all have our agenda, but please consider what is the best for the group as a whole. This back and forth over dead issues is completely useless.

Amen! Well said!

We are actually debating the new contract but need to reference the old one for comparison purposes.

You are kidding right? About not understanding it that is?

Here's my previous take on over 60 guys staying:

"Can you tell me why you think most captains won’t hang around after 60? Many will say that they ‘probably’ will retire at 60 but I say no freakin’ way. Why would they?

They are at the very top of the pay scale, have the best schedules and enjoy tons of vacation time – why would they retire? It just wouldn’t be logical to retire and therefore they won’t!"

Mark - if you say you'll leave at 60 you're kidding yourself - you'll stay past 60 just like the majority of over 60 guys.

However, for the sake of the discussion let's keep this debate focused on the next contract and what we should be asking for versus the age 60 law which we can't do anything about anyways...

I have said it many times before; Greed is a powerful thing!

I'm not a 757 pilot (wish I was) but I'll offer an explanation.

Start off by not saying "FO pay was raised."

Instead say that the longevity pay was raised for years 2-8, and remained the same for years 9-retire (roughly stated). There is a point, where even after accounting for the time value of money, that more money later for more years is more advantageous than more money sooner.

However, like age 65, it's a done deal, and time to move on.

Roberto I agree with you (:eek:) but wouldn't you say that your statement depends very much on how many years a pilot has left before the retirement?

In other words if he/she only gets lets say 5 years as a captain than your statement wouldn't be accurate. On the other hand if someone gets 15 years in the left seat than yes, “more money later” would make sense.

What I was saying is that, in my view, now that we've reached the 70% FO to CA pay ratio that ratio should be locked in and not lowered again. We should now negotiate captain pay rates only and adjust the FO pay accordingly to that ratio. Do you agree with that notion?