AUS_ATC

If I launch a B727 in front of an MD11 or any other type of jet that I believe will accelerate quickly -- I will always use a little extra room to avoid an overtake situation.

It has been my experience at MEM, that the B727's do not climb or accelerate very well on departure, and that the Airbuses and MD10/11's generally have very good climb-rates. With that said, it would seem to me that maintaining Visual Separation with the B727 from the cockpit of an Airbus or MD10/11 might be difficult due to the climb angle.

If something happens downstairs in the TRACON and both aircraft level at 5,000 on the Tower assigned runway heading because they can't talk to a radar Controller -- I predict a major overtake situation, and someone's gonna take evasive action at some point.

MEM_ATC

MD11Fr8Dog

Same rules that let them tell you maintain 170kts to the FAF on a visual approach?

AUS_ATC

Tony,

Some airlines get a little concerned when their aircraft start to pile-up along the taxiway awaiting a takeoff clearance. Phone calls get made... FAA Management gets involved... and then the Supervisors start telling Controllers to "tighten-up the departures" -- meaning: use some visual separation and get things moving.

There's no real bind unless the Controller is hitting a gap, but many of the new guys have taken this practice to heart and they are using Visual Separation as a means to expedite the flow of departure traffic -- and the technique is used at every opportunity.

Yes, but I try to anticipate that and switch to Plan B, which might mean that 1) I provide the Visual Separation, 2) assign you a new altitude to maintain, or 3) coordinate with the TRACON for a new heading.

One of our Rookies found himself in this predicament a while back, and the Supervisor had to coach him through the process to resolve the situation.

I agree. Unfortunately, our Informal Noise Abatement procedures have been made mandatory by the FAA, and this prevents us from turning jets off certain runways unless certain other conditions exist.

Thanks for your comments.

MEM_ATC

FedEx1

On that Noise Abatement note.... since we started NADP 2 departures a few months back (cleaning up at 1000 ft), has there been an increase in noise complaints?

And my two cents, the guy in question didn't have to be so rude about it. We do appreciate ATC trying to help get us out of there. It just isn't always possibly to comply with the requests, even in day light. And I certainly don't call traffic at night coming into the sort! But I can usually pick out the runway.

alarkyokie

A SAC twenty ship MITO!! "That's what I'm TALKING about!!"

CactusCrew

At my previous employer, PHX tower would clear you into position & hold followed by a question about maintaining visial seperation with the departing a/c.

Here is the time and place to find out. Crew responds yes, now as a crew I know that I may need to alter my normal climb profile to maintain sight of the previous departure. Not that big of a deal if I am aware of what is expected of me ...

On the other hand, crew says NO. Controller doesn't get in a bind but leaves them on the runway for a minute or two ...

Wasn't a big deal either way ...

Was the question asked of the heavy well in advance of him beginning the roll ?

Gooch121

Also having flashbacks! #18 in a 23 ship MITO outa' KI one winter. By the time we took the runway the takeoff temp was way hotter than planned.

KC10 FATboy

In DCA, you get this type of clearance all of the time.

Since I did formation takeoffs in the military, this isn't such a big deal for me. None of my Capts have had a problem accepting it.

Usually when they give us the clearance, we have an RJ in front of us. We accelerate and climb faster than they do. We usually get turned early before they do and they then end up behind us.

-Fatty

KC10 FATboy

FAA Order 7110.65, Chapter 3

3-9-6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION

Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding departing or arriving aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that it does not begin takeoff roll until:

a. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end or turned to avert any conflict. (See FIG 3-9-1.) If you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft needs only be airborne if the following minimum distance exists between aircraft: (See FIG 3-9-2.)

1. When only Category I aircraft are involved- 3,000 feet.

2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a Category II aircraft- 3,000 feet.

3. When either the succeeding or both are Category II aircraft- 4,500 feet.

4. When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet.

5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.

FIG 3-9-1
Same Runway Separation
[View 1]


FIG 3-9-2
Same Runway Separation
[View 2]


NOTE-
Aircraft same runway separation (SRS) categories are specified in Appendices A, B, and C and based upon the following definitions:

CATEGORY I- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with a single propeller driven engine, and all helicopters.

CATEGORY II- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with propeller driven twin-engines.

CATEGORY III- all other aircraft.

Beertini

You are scaring me Fatty...breaking out the 7110.65.

Next thing you know we will start doing approach TERPS criteria reviews.

Beertini