FDX B777F Bid cancellation?
01-05-2009, 09:56 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD11 FO, ANC
Posts: 1,098
Originally Posted by FreightDawgyDog
Are you comparing the AA pilots that participated in the Furlough Stand Instead program with those that bid the 777? Interesting take to say the least. I guess those that bid it during the practice bids before the New Years Eve FCIF were altruistic and clairvoyant. We need more guys with those skills on our NC!
Just using them as an example.
The previous poster made reference to pilots who would "actually volunteer" to fly the 777 knowing it would be a big pay cut (most likely) - as if those pilots were lunatics or something for ever even conceiving to do something as radical (stupid) as that.
My point was that sometimes people (pilots) do things that seem nonsensical to others (like "actually volunteering" be FURLOUGHED when they wouldn't otherwise, or to bid the 777 now) - when it doesn't fit into the others' perception of the normal way of doing things - then the others critique their decisions without having the first clue about why the person chose to do it in the first place.
To a FDX pilot like the one in my example - "actually volunteering" to fly less and make less money is STUPID!! and he can't understand why anyone would ever "actually volunteer" to do something so stupid.
But, to the person who "actually volunteers" for a Stand Instead Furlough or to bid the 777 at FDX (knowing it will be a 50% to 100% pay cut from their current income) they probably have thought it through and pressed ahead believing it is the best thing for them to do (either for themselves, their family, or someone other than themselves) - maybe they have a much better deal lined up elsewhere and they need the time off from FDX to pursue it? who knows?
Just don't be so quick to judge others choices without gathering all the facts first.
I saw a friend's name on the Practice Bid #3 FO list and immediately wondered 'what the bleep?' - so, I simply called him and asked him 'what the bleep, over?' We talked about it, and now I understand and agree with his reasoning.
Since I've been at FDX - it seems like there's a lot of guys who've been here a while that have EVERYTHING all figured out - so they feel compelled to tell someone when they are screwing up or about to screw up - when, in fact, THEY are the ones who are clueless.
That's all I was getting at.
01-05-2009, 11:31 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD11 FO, ANC
Posts: 1,098
Originally Posted by Jetjok
Not to change the subject, but your points are exactly the same ones that I've been espousing, from the beginning, about guys working past age 60. Thanks.
JJ
JJ
I'm easing up on the bashing of the over 60s who've chosen to stay though. In fact, I never have said these guys (you) are stupid for choosing to stay.
I understand that these are trying times for all and uncharted waters for most.
However.......while decisions that others make may not always make sense to us, nor may we always be happy to see someone doing something we don't necessarily "like", in some cases (choosing to stay after age 60) there is hard evidence of those decisions having an adverse affect on (possibly even causing severe hardship for) many, many others (junior pilots to them on the seniority list.)
In the case of someone choosing to bid or not bid the 777, doing so (at this point) doesn't harm others or others' career progression. In fact, with the recent turn of events, bidding the 777 might even ENHANCE others' career progression or HELP others in some way - for whatever reason one might bid it (like "actually volunteering" to get furloughed in place of another more junior pilot)
That's the difference.
01-05-2009, 11:49 AM
#14
Trust but Verify!!
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD11 CRA
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by AFW_MD11
No.
Just using them as an example.
The previous poster made reference to pilots who would "actually volunteer" to fly the 777 knowing it would be a big pay cut (most likely) - as if those pilots were lunatics or something for ever even conceiving to do something as radical (stupid) as that.
My point was that sometimes people (pilots) do things that seem nonsensical to others (like "actually volunteering" be FURLOUGHED when they wouldn't otherwise, or to bid the 777 now) - when it doesn't fit into the others' perception of the normal way of doing things - then the others critique their decisions without having the first clue about why the person chose to do it in the first place.
To a FDX pilot like the one in my example - "actually volunteering" to fly less and make less money is STUPID!! and he can't understand why anyone would ever "actually volunteer" to do something so stupid.
But, to the person who "actually volunteers" for a Stand Instead Furlough or to bid the 777 at FDX (knowing it will be a 50% to 100% pay cut from their current income) they probably have thought it through and pressed ahead believing it is the best thing for them to do (either for themselves, their family, or someone other than themselves) - maybe they have a much better deal lined up elsewhere and they need the time off from FDX to pursue it? who knows?
Just don't be so quick to judge others choices without gathering all the facts first.
I saw a friend's name on the Practice Bid #3 FO list and immediately wondered 'what the bleep?' - so, I simply called him and asked him 'what the bleep, over?' We talked about it, and now I understand and agree with his reasoning.
Since I've been at FDX - it seems like there's a lot of guys who've been here a while that have EVERYTHING all figured out - so they feel compelled to tell someone when they are screwing up or about to screw up - when, in fact, THEY are the ones who are clueless.
That's all I was getting at.
Just using them as an example.
The previous poster made reference to pilots who would "actually volunteer" to fly the 777 knowing it would be a big pay cut (most likely) - as if those pilots were lunatics or something for ever even conceiving to do something as radical (stupid) as that.
My point was that sometimes people (pilots) do things that seem nonsensical to others (like "actually volunteering" be FURLOUGHED when they wouldn't otherwise, or to bid the 777 now) - when it doesn't fit into the others' perception of the normal way of doing things - then the others critique their decisions without having the first clue about why the person chose to do it in the first place.
To a FDX pilot like the one in my example - "actually volunteering" to fly less and make less money is STUPID!! and he can't understand why anyone would ever "actually volunteer" to do something so stupid.
But, to the person who "actually volunteers" for a Stand Instead Furlough or to bid the 777 at FDX (knowing it will be a 50% to 100% pay cut from their current income) they probably have thought it through and pressed ahead believing it is the best thing for them to do (either for themselves, their family, or someone other than themselves) - maybe they have a much better deal lined up elsewhere and they need the time off from FDX to pursue it? who knows?
Just don't be so quick to judge others choices without gathering all the facts first.
I saw a friend's name on the Practice Bid #3 FO list and immediately wondered 'what the bleep?' - so, I simply called him and asked him 'what the bleep, over?' We talked about it, and now I understand and agree with his reasoning.
Since I've been at FDX - it seems like there's a lot of guys who've been here a while that have EVERYTHING all figured out - so they feel compelled to tell someone when they are screwing up or about to screw up - when, in fact, THEY are the ones who are clueless.
That's all I was getting at.
Since I was the "previous poster" I feel compelled to respond on both points.
I never said anyone was crazy, or radical, for bidding the 777 knowing there may be a pay cut. I simply stated that, as opposed to those on the DC-10 and 757, they would have a choice whether or not to be on a plane that would likely be built to less hours than others. So instead of reading more into something than what was actually written, perhaps a little of your own medicine may be in order when you prescribe this..
"Since I've been at FDX - it seems like there's a lot of guys who've been here a while that have EVERYTHING all figured out - so they feel compelled to tell someone when they are screwing up or about to screw up - when, in fact, THEY are the ones who are clueless."
Now back to the other point. I have no idea whether any of the names on the final bid award would have bid it to help out a fellow pilot by taking a pay cut. Do you? I have a pretty good idea that none of the pilots on the practice bid awards had any inclination that the 777 lines might be built with less than the 68 BLG min because the FCIF of 12/31 was not out, nor was the latest union email about being cautious with your bid. For those that bid the 777 as a way of throwing themselves on the low pay grenade so others don't suffer, I salute them. BTW..are you bidding the 777?
01-05-2009, 12:00 PM
#15
Trust but Verify!!
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD11 CRA
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by AFW_MD11
It's the same, but different.
I'm easing up on the bashing of the over 60s who've chosen to stay though. In fact, I never have said these guys (you) are stupid for choosing to stay.
I understand that these are trying times for all and uncharted waters for most.
However.......while decisions that others make may not always make sense to us, nor may we always be happy to see someone doing something we don't necessarily "like", in some cases (choosing to stay after age 60) there is hard evidence of those decisions having an adverse affect on (possibly even causing severe hardship for) many, many others (junior pilots to them on the seniority list.)
In the case of someone choosing to bid or not bid the 777, doing so (at this point) doesn't harm others or others' career progression. In fact, with the recent turn of events, bidding the 777 might even ENHANCE others' career progression or HELP others in some way - for whatever reason one might bid it (like "actually volunteering" to get furloughed in place of another more junior pilot)
That's the difference.
I'm easing up on the bashing of the over 60s who've chosen to stay though. In fact, I never have said these guys (you) are stupid for choosing to stay.
I understand that these are trying times for all and uncharted waters for most.
However.......while decisions that others make may not always make sense to us, nor may we always be happy to see someone doing something we don't necessarily "like", in some cases (choosing to stay after age 60) there is hard evidence of those decisions having an adverse affect on (possibly even causing severe hardship for) many, many others (junior pilots to them on the seniority list.)
In the case of someone choosing to bid or not bid the 777, doing so (at this point) doesn't harm others or others' career progression. In fact, with the recent turn of events, bidding the 777 might even ENHANCE others' career progression or HELP others in some way - for whatever reason one might bid it (like "actually volunteering" to get furloughed in place of another more junior pilot)
That's the difference.
For the record, I am not comparing them in anyway to 777 bidders. Just seems like you have it all figured out and was hoping you could enlighten the "clueless".
01-05-2009, 12:21 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD11 FO, ANC
Posts: 1,098
Originally Posted by FreightDawgyDog
........Or put them all in place and build the lines to 48 hours. If we have 700 pilots surplus and can't figure out a way to furlough them that makes economic sense, at least get as many pilots as possible working for a huge pay cut. Am I missing something here? I'd say the DC-10, 757 and 777 crews will be hit the hardest here when it comes to BLG reduction. In the case of the 777, pilots will actually volunteer for that.
I've always said that the written word is not the most effective way of communicating thoughts or emotions - it is extremely difficult for the reader to get the full intent of what they are reading without the other cues to help them.
I apologize that I read-into what you had written.
Having said that.........
Originally Posted by FreightDawgyDog
Are you comparing the AA pilots that participated in the Furlough Stand Instead program with those that bid the 777? Interesting take to say the least. I guess those that bid it during the practice bids before the New Years Eve FCIF were altruistic and clairvoyant. We need more guys with those skills on our NC!
Originally Posted by FreightDawgyDog
Since I was the "previous poster" I feel compelled to respond on both points.
I never said anyone was crazy, or radical, for bidding the 777 knowing there may be a pay cut. I simply stated that, as opposed to those on the DC-10 and 757, they would have a choice whether or not to be on a plane that would likely be built to less hours than others. So instead of reading more into something than what was actually written, perhaps a little of your own medicine may be in order when you prescribe this..
"Since I've been at FDX - it seems like there's a lot of guys who've been here a while that have EVERYTHING all figured out - so they feel compelled to tell someone when they are screwing up or about to screw up - when, in fact, THEY are the ones who are clueless."
I never said anyone was crazy, or radical, for bidding the 777 knowing there may be a pay cut. I simply stated that, as opposed to those on the DC-10 and 757, they would have a choice whether or not to be on a plane that would likely be built to less hours than others. So instead of reading more into something than what was actually written, perhaps a little of your own medicine may be in order when you prescribe this..
"Since I've been at FDX - it seems like there's a lot of guys who've been here a while that have EVERYTHING all figured out - so they feel compelled to tell someone when they are screwing up or about to screw up - when, in fact, THEY are the ones who are clueless."
Again - when I first read your post, I "read-in" that you were jumping the 777 bidders, I already apologized for misinterpreting your intent - but, I still stand by the basic premis of all my replies.
In the time I've been at FDX, you would not believe (or you might?) the number of times I've had senior guys tell me how "they knew all along that freight flying vs. pax was much more stable - they never even applied to any of the pax carriers".....or the many times I heard the story of the "idiot who quit FDX the day before 9/11 to go to AA and was furloughed the next day".....a trend, I would say, of arrogance and ignorance here at FDX.
So, when I hear a FDX guy say (or read what a FDX guy has written) something regarding decisions others have made or are making, I have a pre-disposition to frame the comments in that kind of context.
Again, I apologize for doing that here.
Originally Posted by FreightDawgyDog
Now back to the other point. I have no idea whether any of the names on the final bid award would have bid it to help out a fellow pilot by taking a pay cut. Do you? I have a pretty good idea that none of the pilots on the practice bid awards had any inclination that the 777 lines might be built with less than the 68 BLG min because the FCIF of 12/31 was not out, nor was the latest union email about being cautious with your bid. For those that bid the 777 as a way of throwing themselves on the low pay grenade so others don't suffer, I salute them. BTW..are you bidding the 777?
I highly doubt that anyone is bidding the 777 just to jump on a grenade for anyone junior to them.....not likely......but possible......maybe some are?
I was using the AA Furlough Stand Instead as an example of how sometimes pilots do things that don't make sense to anyone but themselves and their own situation. That's as far as the analogy was meant to go.
I'm most likely too junior to hold the 777 - but I changed my standing bid last night to give it a shot. I really don't expect to get it - "it's going to go way senior"......I'll keep my exact motivations to myself - but rest assured, I have given it a lot of thought and considered all the opinions everyone has written here.
I'm glad we have this forum for hashing all this stuff out - even though it's probably only 20 or so of us that take the time to put stuff on here.
Last edited by AFW_MD11; 01-05-2009 at 12:27 PM.
01-05-2009, 12:26 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD11 FO, ANC
Posts: 1,098
Originally Posted by FreightDawgyDog
How do you feel about DP flyer's and non members? Their decisions make sense to them but not to us.
For the record, I am not comparing them in anyway to 777 bidders. Just seems like you have it all figured out and was hoping you could enlighten the "clueless".
For the record, I am not comparing them in anyway to 777 bidders. Just seems like you have it all figured out and was hoping you could enlighten the "clueless".
DP flyers and non-members actively harm others with those decisions.
They might rationalize that flying DPs makes sense, and being a non-member makes sense, but I think we all know the truth about those two decisions. I don't condone them. I would never fly a DP, and I have always been a strong union member.
01-05-2009, 12:32 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Heavily Involved
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by AFW_MD11
When I read this statement, the tone seemed to me that you were in disbelief that pilots would "actually volunteer" for a 777 knowing they would probably be one of the airplanes "hit the hardest" with BLG reductions. As if this was the only factor they considered when they decided to bid the 777.
I've always said that the written word is not the most effective way of communicating thoughts or emotions - it is extremely difficult for the reader to get the full intent of what they are reading without the other cues to help them.
I apologize that I read-into what you had written.
Having said that.........
I don't think I ever saying/typing/telling anyone they were screwing up. Or, that I have it all figured out either (not even close.) In fact, just the opposite. I was just trying to say - DON'T jump someone for a decision when you don't have all the facts behind that decision.
Again - when I first read your post, I "read-in" that you were jumping the 777 bidders, I already apologized for misinterpreting your intent - but, I still stand by the basic premis of all my replies.
In the time I've been at FDX, you would not believe (or you might?) the number of times I've had senior guys tell me how "they knew all along that freight flying vs. pax was much more stable - they never even applied to any of the pax carriers".....or the many times I heard the story of the "idiot who quit FDX the day before 9/11 to go to AA and was furloughed the next day".....a trend, I would say, of arrogance and ignorance here at FDX.
So, when I hear a FDX guy say (or read what a FDX guy has written) something regarding decisions others have made or are making, I have a pre-disposition to frame the comments in that kind of context.
Again, I apologize for doing that here.
I also didn't say anyone was bidding the 777 in order to help out a fellow pilot. I don't know why anyone is bidding the 777? or why anyone is not?
I highly doubt that anyone is bidding the 777 just to jump on a grenade for anyone junior to them.....not likely......but possible......maybe some are?
I was using the AA Furlough Stand Instead as an example of how sometimes pilots do things that don't make sense to anyone but themselves and their own situation. That's as far as the analogy was meant to go.
I'm most likely too junior to hold the 777 - but I changed my standing bid last night to give it a shot. I really don't expect to get it - "it's going to go way senior"......I'll keep my exact motivations to myself - but rest assured, I have given it a lot of thought and considered all the opinions everyone has written here.
I'm glad we have this forum for hashing all this stuff out - even though it's probably only 20 or so of us that take the time to put stuff on here.
I've always said that the written word is not the most effective way of communicating thoughts or emotions - it is extremely difficult for the reader to get the full intent of what they are reading without the other cues to help them.
I apologize that I read-into what you had written.
Having said that.........
I don't think I ever saying/typing/telling anyone they were screwing up. Or, that I have it all figured out either (not even close.) In fact, just the opposite. I was just trying to say - DON'T jump someone for a decision when you don't have all the facts behind that decision.
Again - when I first read your post, I "read-in" that you were jumping the 777 bidders, I already apologized for misinterpreting your intent - but, I still stand by the basic premis of all my replies.
In the time I've been at FDX, you would not believe (or you might?) the number of times I've had senior guys tell me how "they knew all along that freight flying vs. pax was much more stable - they never even applied to any of the pax carriers".....or the many times I heard the story of the "idiot who quit FDX the day before 9/11 to go to AA and was furloughed the next day".....a trend, I would say, of arrogance and ignorance here at FDX.
So, when I hear a FDX guy say (or read what a FDX guy has written) something regarding decisions others have made or are making, I have a pre-disposition to frame the comments in that kind of context.
Again, I apologize for doing that here.
I also didn't say anyone was bidding the 777 in order to help out a fellow pilot. I don't know why anyone is bidding the 777? or why anyone is not?
I highly doubt that anyone is bidding the 777 just to jump on a grenade for anyone junior to them.....not likely......but possible......maybe some are?
I was using the AA Furlough Stand Instead as an example of how sometimes pilots do things that don't make sense to anyone but themselves and their own situation. That's as far as the analogy was meant to go.
I'm most likely too junior to hold the 777 - but I changed my standing bid last night to give it a shot. I really don't expect to get it - "it's going to go way senior"......I'll keep my exact motivations to myself - but rest assured, I have given it a lot of thought and considered all the opinions everyone has written here.
I'm glad we have this forum for hashing all this stuff out - even though it's probably only 20 or so of us that take the time to put stuff on here.
You sure as he11 ain't gonna fly 4 days in a bid month, if you did, senior vacation would make you dang near unusuable for the whole year. YOu will see 2 departure HKG out and backs with some intra-asian flying totalling near 70CH.
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