Rye, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for bringing that up. I guess in that case, all of the above?

I just think those companies always need crews for a reason. I am not the only one that has expressed opposing views of my list. I was speaking to a guy that left one of those outfits recently because of the type of work. If IFL is so great why are they having so many issues on the 727 AND every Kalitta guy, Amerijet guy, interjet, USA jet and others would be lining up no? Yet, IFL advertise all the time for all fleets and DEC's. Something must be amiss.

I have the deal sent to me by IFL and it's not any good.

Because the entire 121 supplemental game in DTW is getting killed by hiring going on everywhere and by regionals raising their pay. Can't keep the guys with experience, can't get new guys to stick around with a crappy schedule and no future.

Convair and 727 are under the 121 certificate. So you need a restricted ATP. That's all we require. Although, we may have a guy in class who is going to be an FE while he finishes his flight training on his own time. Not a bad deal, in my opinion. He will make a solid paycheck, then go home and use it all for flight training.

Falcons are under the 135 certificate. So I believe you only need a commercial certificate.

This company is not the type of place that you spend your entire career working for. Everyone, including ownership, knows and understands this. They also understand that this company is a stepping stone in a pilot's career. Just like a regional airline.

Everyone will tell you not to come here. Hell, I'll tell you not to. It's a tough job and not every guy that walks through the door can hack it. But for some people, it makes sense. Maybe not to you, but to someone else. Going through my list of past guys, I see very few that left here with a bad taste in their mouth.

The "deal" that you say isn't any good, is your opinion. I thought my first year on Captain pay was pretty sweet! If you can get a better deal someplace else, then by all means. That's why the "bouncers" keep bouncing. We all strive for a better deal and we all take different paths to get it. My path is here. I've made great money (my opinion), while never having to worry about getting laid off. Now I'm just waiting for my name to be called.

I would guess, with such an astronomical rate of washouts, a new hire would be putting their career at risk.

All points taken. These companies have, and always will be, a stain on the industry. Since the end of WW2 the supplementals changed the industry but not for the better and most are gone now. We now call them "charter" carriers. The pay for 727 Capt AND to load/unload AND be on call 24/6 AND to jumpseat with VERY limited Cass, is not opinion, it's crap!

I'm not trying to pick a fight but if you think that is what you are worth then that's what the company thinks of you. The ads and turnover at these places speak volumes. Just go to the profiles section on this site and look at the profiles of USA jet and Kalitta. Go read the ad on 350 from Aliner and Skyway. It reaks of desperation plus it's mostly lies as the devil is in the details.

I do not agree these "outfits" are stable, safe or career promoting. If they were, the line would be out the door. Again, if you need DEC's, the operation must have some serious issues. And as someone pointed out, if the training failure rate is so high, 1)why? And 2)who would risk the pink slip?

All the companies I mentioned have bad raps and plenty are saying what I am saying. Believe or say what you want. There is a reason they cannot attract or keep people.

The option to load or not is at K2 , don't know what is is at IFL

1. No I can not.

2. anywhere from 15 to 45 most of the time somewhere in the middle

3. No , not at all , it all depends , if you are local to the DTW area the DC9 is just as good a fleet , if you are not than I guess the 727 is the better aircraft to be on as pilots get accommodations and cars while at base , 727 pilots get picked up and dropped off from DTW at the beginning and at the end of each rotation , so no crash pads or airport cars are needed which is money in the pocket.

DC 9 sched is 9 on 9 off , 727 is 16 on 12 off , I believe the 737 is 13 on -10 off . ( For now there is no flow through between fleets )

Also K2 and K4 are two different operations , while K4 is Connie's operation K2 is Doug's Kalitta operation with no flow through between the two .

Of course 727 , DC9 or 73-4 can not move the loads and do not have the range to fly 747 loads so personally I can't see Connie using K2 to fly K4 business or moving pilots between the two because of "problems " mind you , both K2 and K4 are represented by the Teamsters ...

Pilots getting fired in a heart beat ? Not really.

Driving the van ? yes between close bases of operations to re-position crews at the beginning and at the end of rotations or to bring your fellow pilots to or from the airport at the beginning or end of rotation.

Yes coach while being re-positioned on other carriers .

CASS ? yes , all except for Delta ( can still JS on the Delta's regionals)

Thanks again Chyna. Are you saying you never have to load/unload the aircraft? I ask as K2 would be the best job going with what you are writing.

I have from someone that it's not Doug but flight ops management that will fire you on the spot if you do not do what you are told or do not work extra days.

I've been called a few times but do not trust the "Kalitta"name.

Are they hiring for all fleets? More 737s coming?

Not true.

I was an instructor on the 72. There has been only checkride 1 failure that I know of.

It's a tough plane to learn, and you're held to high standards. Rote memorization isn't enough. Deep systems knowledge is mandatory, but the training is by far the best of the three 121 initials that I've been through. If you work hard, you'll be more than prepared. But, probably 25% don't make it through ground school. They are usually the older guys who have bounced around from job to job, and just aren't taking things seriously. They resign - no stain on their records.

In the sims, a few wash out from time to time. Again, they resign - no stain on their records.

25% may seem high, but it's a blessing in disguise. The oral and check ride is with a Fed. You will not get signed off for a ride if the instructors aren't 100% sure you will pass. Again, no stains on anybody's records.

I don't know of a single young beginning of their career kids that has ever washed out.

True , I never " Had" to and it was always a welcome option to get a little extra pay , like I wrote you are not really loading ( as in lifting or pushing) but rather strapping the load.
Again , no pilot that I know of or heard of was ever fired on the spot , if someone was let go it was someone with more than one issue with the company . you have to understand that with the hiring everywhere these days airlines try to maintain their work force and training is costly .

Extra days ? never ! if they have to keep you for an extra day they have to pay you extra and possibly fly you home , not only that you are not forced into working extra days but you are sometimes released a day or two early.


From what I understand , yes , more 73's are on the way and they will be hiring onto the DC9 , not sure about the 727 as there is a group that is still in training , more than likely in the foreseeable future. ( they advertise on the orange site)

Sorry, man but that's a load of crap. I started out in YIP back in the late 70s as a loadmaster/flight follower then f/o for several operators. The flying is what it is but what you learn is more valuable than instructing for thousands of hours or sitting right seat in a CRJ staring at the autopilot.

Ad hoc charter business will always be there. It won't pay like UPS or FedEx or Atlas because the margins are razor thin. The equipment will be old but generally be looked at by guys who know how to fix things.

I left the nonsched business to go get some PIC time at a commuter. I had friends who stayed and ended up sitting left seat in a DC8 while I was still flying turboprops. I'm very fortunate with how my career has gone but I do think that a lot of my success was due to the strong foundation I got from flying auto parts and everything else you could stick in the back of a DC3 or Convair. I learned a lot from the captains I flew with. Some of it was "sh##, I'll never do that". All a learning experience.

Don't ever look down on someone for flying nonsched. Not everyone has had a smooth career. Lots of good people have seen good jobs go away in this business. Many people have made a mistake in their lives and needed another chance to redeem themselves. And for a low time guy who is eager to learn it's a great place to start. YIP and places like that have many characters and many stories. It's the part of my life that I enjoyed a lot and I do miss some of the stories.

Amen to Cactusmike, and to add to that some people actually *want* to do some nonsched flying. It's actually a damn fun time for a few years- certainly not what I would want to do forever but I will never forget my nonsched days. Flying all over the place in all kinds of scenarios really builds a pilot's skill set, and I was making over 2x what my regional pals were making. Beats hub turns in a CRJ for $20k/yr all day long. I'm flying heavies now, but a big part of me still misses buzzing through Mexico in a metroliner.

I did non sched in the DC-3, and CV340 for IFL, I loved my time there in the 1990s, great flying,great planes, great people, and yes it was excruciatingly hard work at times, but I wouldn't trade 1/10 of an hour of my DC-3 time for anything else, and a lot of my best stories come from that era : ).

Advertising again but says you don't have to live on base.

PILOT CAREER CENTER - Latest Pilot Jobs, Pilot Resume / Pilot CV Design, Interview Preps and more...

Falcons and Boeings are offered an 18 on / 12 off schedule now. you'll still need a crash pad on base. I'll be opening one up in July.

How much does the DA20 FOs usually fly? 300-400hrs?

I can't speak accurately about the falcons, but I think it depends on if you get hired for one of the scheduled runs. Those guys fly quite a bit I think. The adhoc guys have been pretty busy (compared to the boeing) this year as well. A ballpark number is probably around 400 hours a year. But that's purely a guess and with the new schedule, it's could be less.

Good copy, thanks for the info!
I applied few days ago, now waiting to hear back.

So Kalitta Charters 2 is looking for 727 Pic/Sics again. Any latest news and is K2 better or IFL? I have been called by both but am rated on some K2 aircraft but it does not seem to matter. It looks like I'll need a new job in June/July. Home basing/housing provide, schedule and benefits/jumpseat (with best agreements) are most important. I'd really like to fly the 727 and at K2 it sounds to be the best deal. Even go as an FO vs. Capt on 737 or DC-9. Thanks.

Nothing???

IFL has pretty pathetic jumpseat agreements. Pretty much the only carriers that you can jumpseat with are UPS and Spirit. I know that the schedule for the Falcon is 18 on 12 off, and I believe that it's the same for the 727.

2 CRJs are on property. They don't have doors in them yet. First one with a door cut into it should be coming soon. I believe it's basically ready for delivery. Just working out the paperwork.

K2 does not have home basing
Housing / cars at base are provided for 727 crews only
Schedules are different for each fleet
Right now there is no flow through from one fleet to another
Base is YIP , no jumpseat agreement with Delta mainline ( have pretty much all the rest).

Apparently IFL has raised the pay for the 727. Getting back and forth to PTK is another matter.

From what I've recently heard.......IFL 727 has a very high attrition and failure rate, about 100%. They claim that everyone passes training, but that's only the ones they choose to pass,everyone else is either dismissed, fired, or quits. Pass rate is not the same as Finish rate, where maybe 0/10 finishes training, IOE and the 2 year contract. The ONE and only person XYZ who is really in charge of training/IOE has a lot of personal problems, and really takes enjoyment in making your life miserable, with failing people, demotion, mind games, or what ever he can do to to hurt someone. To top it all off, the company requires a Promisiry Note for the type rating, holding you prisoner with the threat of financial ruin if you quit or save yourself. So in the end, your lucky to make it out of IFL without any problems, be it either psychological or financial. But please don't take my word for it, go ahead and find out for yourself.

From what I've heard.....the training/IOE instructor, [GoDaddy], is a real psychopath, reminisces of some sort of Spokane serial killer.

I’ll agree with some of that. [WOW] training style is different. It’s damn tough. There is a high washout rate. He is always playing with your mind. And there’s nothing like it… by far the best training I’ve received at any point in my career which includes all of flight school, three 121 initials, upgrade to FO on the 727, and upgrade to CA at my current gig.

Although I left IFL a while ago and am now in a modern jet, I still use [his/her] training daily, and end up passing down bits to my FO’s; everything from stick and rudder skills, to complex decision making. My IFL friends and I joke but it’s true, when met with a situation we’re not sure of, we think about “WWJPD”.

The training and checking I received in my 3+ years at IFL were the most comprehensive; in-depth; and, most importantly, fair that I have seen in this industry. It is astounding the number of people I fly with currently who don't seem to have the basic 121 jet airplane theory that JP so eloquently taught at IFL.

If you want to learn how to be a standard 121 button pusher, you can go anywhere. Anybody can teach you that. If you want a comprehensive course on how to be a professional, educated, systems oriented 121 aviator, go to IFL. JP's new hire Boeing training will set you on the path to career success.

From what you have heard, huh? Those are some strong words from someone that has "heard" about IFL. I don't know about anyone else, maybe I am crazy but I would never spread and slander someone's name on a public forum because I "heard" something about someone. Seems to me that you might be one of the fallen, one that couldn't hack it, one that couldn't keep pace. Yes, his teaching style is tough, demanding, and intense. But what you get out of it is priceless. He doesn't settle for mediocrity, he gives his best and he expects the same from you.

I was at IFL when it was a DC-3 and Convair company, the training was always good, and was always demanding,because the environment we operated in was always so demanding. No sims back then of course, we basically followed the Ernie Gann canon. At our round engine height in 1994, we had 9 DC-3's, 2 CV340's, and a DC-4. The CV580's started to show up in '95, the DC3's went bye,in '97, the DC4.in '96, and the CV340's in 2000. I'm proud of my alma mater,and their success in the present day,much of our then competition is smoke. Cheers out.

Getting passed [XXXXXXXX] is no easy task. He is tough, but he is an excellent instructor. He takes kids with 300 hours and teaches them how to not only be an engineer but a professional aviator. With a [CCCCCCCC] ground school foundation, you'll probably be the smartest guy in any class you go to when you leave. The experience will shape the rest of your career.

Remember, most of these guys don't have much/if any professional experience. The biggest thing they've flown is probably a seminole, and now they are sitting in the cockpit of a 727. He can't just let every button pusher through. He has very high standards and won't allow it, regardless of their credentials.

Some guys expect class to be a formality rather than a learning experience, and they end up being the disgruntled washouts. If you want a job spoon fed to you, go to a regional. FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD, those jobs are "brain off" easy. lol

If you've got a question, post it or send me a PM. I'll answer it honestly for you. Don't drag a good man's name through the dirt based on something you've heard.

I will say this. 10 guys walk in to class. 2 guys will leave before it's time to go to the sim on their own accord. They have their reasons, whether it be a better job offer or they realize this job is just to hard for them. 2 more guys will not be invited to the sim because they just aren't ready. Learning the systems is not a cake walk. There is a ton to learn. Sometimes the company offers to put you through the next class if they feel like you just need more time because they know how difficult it is for these guys. Now we have 6 guys going to the sim. 1 or 2 will either not be invited to take the check ride or fail the check ride or even walk away before the event because because of another job offer or they simply don't have the confidence. You don't take the check ride unless the instructor thinks you are ready. We are not in the business of ruining careers. Failures are taken personally. We don't just wash our hands and move on. We wonder what else could we have done. So in the end, 10 guys show up to the first day of class, and 4-5 make it all the way through.

We have new guys sign a 1 year contract/promissory note. There is a lot of time and effort spent on each person. In my opinion, it's the least you can do. Plus, you don't sign the note until you come back from the sim, and it decreases in value every month. You pay nothing unless you leave before your year is up.

One last thing, in the previous administration, everyone passed. The philosophy was different. It was basically a ticket to learn. The quality was poor and didn't work. With JP at the helm, we have professionals sitting in every seat, not just the left seat.

Any latest on K2? The Good the Bad the Ugly?

Here's one for you... Maybe [blah blah blah] could use a dose of his own medicine? Promissory note,,, someone can shove it, or let the FAA pay it since they mandate the training. In any case, holding people prisoner in crap conditions, conditions they couldn't have imagined because they've always been lucky enough to avoid dysfuntion, via a note is a dirty practice; one of many old school tricks that needs to go once and for all.

Have a nice day.

They haven't been able to enforce the promissory note on anyone on the Falcon. Everyone signs it, but I know of about a dozen guys who have left while still "under contract" and the company hasn't been able to do anything about it.

Spending 18 days a month in Waterford MI...consider that there are no single women to meet, no dating environment, just a bunch of old ..., ...., smokers in Waterford MI. If your single, you are very likely to remain that way.

I met my wife at PTK when I flew for IFL , we were both flying DC-3's, you never know : )

Nobody is holding a gun to your head saying you have to work for us. There is plenty of time to walk away before you have to sign. Some people walk into this job not realizing just how hard it is. Some people just ignore everything we tell them in class about the job. This isn't a "window heat, pitot heat, what's to eat" company. You work long days and night. Sometimes with out a chance to eat or sleep. So you better be prepared. We give you several chances to walk away from our "crap conditions." In the end, you are the one that accepted them if you signed the contract. You can't blame anyone but yourself.