This is my first post so here goes … I have been furloughed three times in my airline career. The first one was for thirty days. The second one was for seven months. I don’t know how long the third one was for because I got a new job in the interim. Each time I was notified by a “Mailgram”, and each Mailgram I received gave me exactly two weeks notice. That was the advantage of the Mailgram; the company knew what day it would be delivered.
Each time I was furloughed, I moved back into my old bedroom, my mother started cooking for me again and I drove my parent’s cars. I was very lucky. I was also young with no wife, no kids, no mortgage, and I never gave health insurance any thought.
A much different picture could be painted today of the pilots on the south end of our seniority list. I doubt the vast majority are interested in extending their adolescence like I did. They have wives, kids, mortgages, etc. They have had their parents move back in with them rather than vice versa.
They are also an extremely qualified bunch. I have flown with several of them. There are Chief Flight Instructors, Chief Pilots, Squadron Leaders, Platoon Leaders, lots of hours and lots of airlines. There might even be a Space Shuttle landing. A few have already gone and others are thinking about going back on active duty. They are also our friends and colleagues.
There are some advantages of having a reduced amount of flying each month. The schedules are generally better, especially for commuters. More time with the wife and kids, more time to visit my parents. Now, I do the cooking because my mother really can’t do much anymore, and she used to be a great cook. I keep getting health insurance, vacation time, catering. My son is really excited about learning to fix our old cars, and I have more time to visit my daughter who is out of state in college.
FedEx, UPS, and e-mail pretty much rendered the Mailgram obsolete and it was discontinued by Western Union a couple of years ago. I don’t think I will really miss them though.

 

CR,

Great first posting. I tried to hint much of the same in a different thread but you said it much better than I did. A furlough can be a truly life changing experience for numerous reasons. Like you said so well, the loss of income and insurance is a scary place to find oneself in the current economy.

I was lucky when it happened to me. I had a working wife that made a decent living, I was still in the Reserves (pretty good part time income, including extended periods of Active Duty) and I knew I had marketable job skills (I was able to quickly find a job as a Flight Test Engineer). I would venture that many on the bottom of the seniority list might never of had a job outside of flying.

Because FedEx has never furloughed, it's very much an abstract concept here. I'll bet UAL has an entirely different perspective than we do? Because we've never furloughed I'm concerned about gray areas (maybe unaddressed holes?) in our contract that have not been well thought out simply because nobody ever thought we'd find ourselves in this situation. In fact, I recently ran into BC in the AOC and asked him how the mushy language in CBA section 4.a.2.b was able to get by our negotiating committee? His response was, "We knew what it said, we didn't like it, we never thought we would be in this situation, and we had bigger issues to concern ourselves with." Well ... at least that was an honest answer. What other issues have management and the union never even thought of? Do you trust management will do "the right thing" just because it's the right thing to do?

I think DW was a furlough refugee and I know that the new NC chairman was furloughed so maybe our union leadership will be proactive concerning furlough issues but will the company even engage? Will they do a single thing not required by the contract? Will they do the required things in this cost cutting environment?

I think we're in for a difficult next 12-24 months unless the economy does some sort of amazing turn-around. A recession is when your friend loses their job, a depression is when you lose your job.


Mark

 

Great post CR. As a former bottom lister myself I understand all that you speak of. All 3 of mine came via Registered Mail if I recall. 2 got canceled when the union that represented me agreed to meet again about a 5% pay cut. Myself and 200 of my fellow aviators were nothing more than hostages taken by a company that used furlough threats to try and get out of a 5% pay raise the pilots had coming to them as per the contract we were under. The problem in their eyes was that the company was losing money and didn't want to pay even though they didn't give anything not required by the contract when they made record profits. No sharing the wealth, just sharing the pain. Sound familiar? I told the union not to give in as I would rather be let go and come back to a company that didn't use blackmail as a negotiating tool. So, since we truly were surplus and we were all on the bottom in the 727 S/O seat and easy to let go, it came to be after 2 false alarm letters that they finally cut me loose. Then the CEO took a million dollar bonus for putting 200 pilots and their families on the street, all making less than $30k a year. As I walked I was told by every pilot I flew with that they would make sure I got back and thanks for taking this bullet for the group. ALPA paid our Cobra and then provided insurance for us while we were out from a voluntary active pilot contribution. They even had funds you could borrow from interest free if you needed it. That kind of support was great.

The real support I and others needed though was for those that remained to just fly their line and not any extra so we would be back sooner. The longer we remained out, the more of a factor we would be in the next contract talks. The company in question actually went to a little used overtime system that paid 200% and didn't count against your monthly bank. It worked so well they were able to drop another 300 pilots on to the street and ALPA said they couldn't do anything about it. Of course the worst offenders were Captains so the dues money they got from all that OT was a lot more than the paltry sum they got from a 32K a year member. Either way it sucked and I felt screwed by both th company and the pilot group. I hope this group will do better if we ever get to a furlough and you can bet I will. The end of the story is I ended up here and didn't go back to the other place when I had the chance, a decision that makes me look smart now, but one that Captains I flew with used to berate me over! The truth is I won't know until I die whether it was the right call or not but I digress. Bottom line, for anyone on the list and not just the bottom 600, is you need to plan for the worst and hope for the best.

My point here is most of us will do what we have to to prevent a furlough including taking an hours cut in the way the contract describes in 4a2b. Right now, IMO and those in charge of our union, we are not there yet so what the company has done is nothing more than a way to stop abiding by one part of the contract (buy ups to 68 hrs costing 1 mill a month) by the misapplication of a clause meant to really mitigate an impending furlough. If we get there I trust we will all be willing to take that cut to help our fellow pilots out. What were not willing to do is allow the company to drop our hours below contract established mins anytime they use the word furlough in a letter. Most on the bottom of the list would do well to ignore many rumors and innuendo posted here and just be ready for the worst. I still don't see a furlough anytime soon unless the economy tanks more and we start parking planes. Thanks for sharing your thoughts CR. I am sure there are many who feel the same way..

 

You guys obviously didn't listen to Ayn Rand over on the other thread.

I prefer "Love thy neighbor as thyself" but the thread got locked before I could post it....

 

I missed out on that one too! Did you notice that BOYCAPTAIN, who says he doesn't post here much anymore after attacking our union, had several posts on that thread but doesn't have the cahones to back up his charges against our union on any other threads? Tells you all you need to know about him. Us poor "Bafoons" or as I like to spell it, buffoons, that actually back up our postings with facts upset him too much I guess. I would love to hear his "facts" though so I wish he would reply...

 

I too just read the "Furlough is an inherent risk" thread and could not post before it was closed. While I do not agree with Say4Do4, I'm glad he posted his opinion. And i wish people could refrain from the personal attacks so ths discussion could have continued......... My experience over the last month is that his stance is not as isolated as I would have thought. In fact, many of his statements were practically verbatim from a dinner conversation with several crewmembers last trip. In fact, I was in the minority voicing my support for the union. But what it all boils down to is either you agree with the concept (as stated in our contract, as stated by our union on many occasions) that we all should make less to keep most if not all our members on the property or you dont. And at this point, Im not sure how a vote on this issue with the membership would land.

 

Thanks for the generous comments May Day and Freight Dawg.

So, if I understand you correctly, two things need to happen: First the economy needs to get better. Not withstanding that that may not happen overnight, the company will need to batten down the hatches. Which they have already begun to do. Based on your comments what is hindering the process is that there does not seem to be a lot of trust between the Company and the pilots. The best way the Company can secure the deck with the pilots is for there to be trust between us. Or perhaps more precisely; there needs to be trust between the Company and the Union. How we get there I don’t know, but I’ll keep hoping.

 

That person that posted that initial post in "that other thread" represents what has always been the worst about the airline pilot profession. It is people like that have prevented the implementation of any sort of national seniority list (something that would need to be implemented from a certain date forward to prevent the obvious complications to people with a lot of seniority at the "have" carriers) or other mechanism to prevent pilots from being played against each other. It is truly sad.

While 4a2b needs some fixing (particularly concerning flex and reserve people), reducing the flying across the board, before furloughing is the RIGHT THING TO DO. I have a quarter century at this company, and so, it might be possible for me to avoid a pay cut if I choose. I am not a flex or reserve, so that doesn't impact me either. I sure could use the money, fitting nicely into the stereotypical profile of ex-wives, alimony, child support and being over extended. Taking a pay cut will cause some serious pain for me, selling things off, and a lot of other things, to try to make ends meet. That said, I would not even think of doing anything else if I can help keep someone from going onto the street.

Does my thinking also benefit the company? Probably, but so what? The company will survive and do fine whether we furlough or not, although better if they can avoid it for them. However, the impact on that furloughed pilot? Huge.

One final thing. I have worked in management at this company, and for the union. I have seen the inside of both. Despite all the talk here, the majority of those on BOTH sides are just trying to do the right thing and keep the pain to a minimum for everyone. We are fortunate to have good people who actually care on both sides right now. You can choose to believe that or not, but it is the truth.

We need to concentrate on WHAT is right, not WHO is right. Sharing the pain is the right thing to do, and, together, we will be a stronger group on the other side of it. Those junior people won't forget it. Those junior people at AA didn't when the opposite was done to them.

One day, those on the bottom of our list will be playing a big part in how our retirement benefits and other things are determined. I would want them to be thinking about how the senior people protected them way back in 2009.

 

Hmmm,
I don't think it's so much a lack of trust as the Company doesn't want to do the pilots any favors. The Company is OK with the current circumstances and doesn't want to fork over any $$$ for something that will eventually happen, or hamper the manning model.

Why give a pilot $$$ to retire early when it will happen eventually? Guys going out earlier than they have to with a bonus and a pension multiplier has a cost associated with it and the company isn't willing to pay that cost.
Let a pilot work to 65+ and the pension plan is stronger thanks to the additional time the investments have to compound combined with the reduced duration of payments out of the plan.

Why publish No Fly lines? That's intentionally doing a pilot a favor. Yes, they would be at the exact min BLG. And Yes, they are essentially the same as a Senior Pilot's reserve utilization rate. But, again, doing a pilot a favor.

Why restrict the amount of CO some pilots do by a mandatory min days off requirement? The Company likes having pilots work an additional 2-7 days at straight time. It does minimize the total compensation the company is required to pay. It's not just salary, but, all of the other benefits that we receive-health insurance, life insurance, LTD, A plan, B plan. All of those expenses are minimized by preventing a monthly hours cap some other airlines have.

Why would the company want to eliminate the option to canx vacation? The company wants to buy back vacation, except for that last year prior to retirement. The company doesn't want you to actually use all of your vacation, just as the company doesn't want you to actually use your sick leave. It's lost productivity--even during a period of time when reserve utilization is historically low.

The company didn't have to let the R day value drop so low. The contract specifies a maximum number of R days, not a minimum. The company could have done the "right" thing and reduced the number of days a reserve pilot (and instructor) were scheduled to work commensurate with the reduced BLG.
But, they didn't. That would be doing a pilot a favor.


Some folks lose track of what a union can and can't do. The union is primarily there to negotiate a contract and protect the contract. The union is not an active member of the board and we can't keep the company from doing stupid stuff. WE don't get a vote in how the company decides to man the property. WE get a small vote in how the company elects to schedule flying, but, there are enough independent contractors that the small vote gets vetoed by our fellow pilots hopping into the lukewarm pot of water.

If WE want to tell the company how to run things, then all WE have to do is buy enough stock and we will have change we can believe in

 

I was a dollar late too on the posting. Interesting reading notwithstanding the attacks. My last couple of trips also involved some discussion regarding the sentiments by our more senior crews.

I am perennially junior but refuse to subscribe to the screw-my-buddy gig. My position is that the company is overmanned due to POOR MANAGEMENT, period. There will always be a need to have a few hundred folks on the list to absorb charters, new business, and such. The reason we are significantly overstaffed by the company's standards are there own problems. Invoking a section of our contract that is intended for the "worst possible scenario" i.e. imminent bankruptcy/liquidation is wrong. Personally, I hope they win this grievance and collectively we need to all STICK TOGETHER!!!