Message to say4dew about unions
01-25-2009, 08:14 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Message to say4dew about unions
say4dew4,
Sent this as a private message but not accepting any, so will go public instead unedited .
"Just saw the thread. Unfortunately, closed before had a chance to respond.
I disagree with your view mostly, but also dissappointed with responses that got the thread shutdown.
Simply put, our choice is different than most professions. Witness the USAIR crew ditching in the Hudson. The crew was acting as one. IMO, It helps to take an active aproach to that unity in all things related to our profession. I enjoy the benefits of seniority at UPS because others sacrificed pay and benefits for their selected seniorty group to boost benefits for all, it is moving the ball down the field in a more hospitable and survivable environment for all. Unions, with good leadership, can accomplish a sense of shared career. It is not socialism, rather the best of good capitalism, we all help each other get the most for our efforts in our chosen profession. You have earned what you have, but would argue from a capitalistic point of view that unity builds better benefit dividends later on for each of us. At UPS, if they furlough, that is a business decision. My decision as a union member is to act like a union and minimize the fallout (At UPS and Fedex, they will return) I would propose a COBRA package and a furlough check paid by our dues. The simple idea being that they will remain more unified in the next contract and we would all benefit (management yields more benefits to a unified pilot group). The pilot I help on the street may very well save my life in the cockpit some day. Many of my former Capt F/O's have already saved my ticket from committing an FAR violation or worse by preventing a poor headwork error. I am not perfect and rely heavily on the experience of my crew as they do mine. They spoke up since we are a "we" If I was perceived as a complete "me", they may very well see to let me be "me" and potentially cause harm to all. Reason CRM became so essential to safety. That is the essence of a difference in our profession as pilots. Another reason it becomes "we".
The entry card is individual hard work and determination with alot of luck. Now that we are here, wish more than just luck for all of us and am willing to pay for the better result.
That is the reason I support (at UPS) a benefits assesment should we furlough, in many ways it is self serving and selfish. I get to fly with a person who will be more willing to help me survive a bad patch wether in the air or in my personal life (like cancer, etc). IPA pilots have often ponied up to cover members families hit by tragedy (death, cancer, etc. )Not always fair, but the overall result yields more fruit for all of us in the end. Not unique to our union.
Wishing the best to all of us.
SD
Sent this as a private message but not accepting any, so will go public instead unedited .
"Just saw the thread. Unfortunately, closed before had a chance to respond.
I disagree with your view mostly, but also dissappointed with responses that got the thread shutdown.
Simply put, our choice is different than most professions. Witness the USAIR crew ditching in the Hudson. The crew was acting as one. IMO, It helps to take an active aproach to that unity in all things related to our profession. I enjoy the benefits of seniority at UPS because others sacrificed pay and benefits for their selected seniorty group to boost benefits for all, it is moving the ball down the field in a more hospitable and survivable environment for all. Unions, with good leadership, can accomplish a sense of shared career. It is not socialism, rather the best of good capitalism, we all help each other get the most for our efforts in our chosen profession. You have earned what you have, but would argue from a capitalistic point of view that unity builds better benefit dividends later on for each of us. At UPS, if they furlough, that is a business decision. My decision as a union member is to act like a union and minimize the fallout (At UPS and Fedex, they will return) I would propose a COBRA package and a furlough check paid by our dues. The simple idea being that they will remain more unified in the next contract and we would all benefit (management yields more benefits to a unified pilot group). The pilot I help on the street may very well save my life in the cockpit some day. Many of my former Capt F/O's have already saved my ticket from committing an FAR violation or worse by preventing a poor headwork error. I am not perfect and rely heavily on the experience of my crew as they do mine. They spoke up since we are a "we" If I was perceived as a complete "me", they may very well see to let me be "me" and potentially cause harm to all. Reason CRM became so essential to safety. That is the essence of a difference in our profession as pilots. Another reason it becomes "we".
The entry card is individual hard work and determination with alot of luck. Now that we are here, wish more than just luck for all of us and am willing to pay for the better result.
That is the reason I support (at UPS) a benefits assesment should we furlough, in many ways it is self serving and selfish. I get to fly with a person who will be more willing to help me survive a bad patch wether in the air or in my personal life (like cancer, etc). IPA pilots have often ponied up to cover members families hit by tragedy (death, cancer, etc. )Not always fair, but the overall result yields more fruit for all of us in the end. Not unique to our union.
Wishing the best to all of us.
SD
01-25-2009, 08:42 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
Dogpile on the independent contractors
Salty,
Thanks for the post -well put. I hope you won't mind if I throw in my .02 since I got shut out last night too.
A recently famous “lurker” dubbed himself and the rest of us “independent contractors” (IC) to Fedex. I won’t try to jump into the collective group’s head and try to understand why quite a few of our brethren who pay dues and call themselves ALPA members choose to operate as independent contractors. However, that, in a nutshell, is one of the major weaknesses I see to our union here at Fedex.
What’s the point of a union made up of pilots who view themselves as independent contractors? Why join if that’s your view?
A union is supposed to be about shared sacrifice and shared QOL and monetary gains, depending on the situation. Teamwork and unity equal the ability to collectively improve our situation – together. If everyone views themselves as independent contractors, we have neither. Perhaps the concept of teamwork, unity and shared sacrifice were not values that our “lurker”, Mr. Say4Dew4, was exposed to on his particular journey to his “dream job”. With personal advancement and eventual success landing your dream job as your main focus, why should we expect much out of such a person? If you’ve never been a part of a team that needs you to put your own best interests at the back of the line, I guess it’s not that difficult to understand how such attitudes develop. Somehow, most pilots at Fedex regardless of their background managed to “get it” and are true team players. So, maybe we’re just dealing with an isolated character flaw. Who knows.
I’m furloughed UAL and while not perfect, I will say that ALPA group had a pretty good handle on how to deal with independent contractors and provided guidance to the membership. They had a not-so-nice name for the independent contractors in their midst that had already shown their true colors – they even kept their names on a list for easy reference.
So, when is a personal sacrifice worthy of you making it? Obviously not when it involves just helping the junior pilots and not you directly. So, we can count on you as long as you see some personal benefit resulting from your actions? If it helps the junior and those to come after we start hiring again – screw ‘em. So, I guess you’d be a fan of a B-scale pay rate – at least now I know how something like that got put into a contract in the past. Just a bunch of independent contractors looking out for themselves and exercising seniority, right? Those guys on the B-scale will be senior someday and they’ll get all the benefits then.
Sometimes we (ALPA) will expect our members to sacrifice so that we can show our unity and force company actions like bringing negotiations to a conclusion or even stop taking actions we believe are improper.
What if we all decided to take the scheduled DH instead of deviating?
What if everyone protected min days off?
Never happen – we could never get everyone on board with that, right? That’s always the excuse. Well it’s probably right with a bunch of pilots who think they’re independent contractors. I’ve been a part of a pilot group that was willing to take those kinds of actions and by doing so got one of the best contracts in the industry just before 9/11. That wasn’t luck and it wasn’t due to the generous nature of UAL management. It was because as a group, we sacrificed, didn’t fly overtime, didn’t do favors for schedulers (even if it meant a good deal, tomorrow), we didn’t fly broken jets just to move the aircraft and we didn’t waive duty times. Most importantly, WE CALLED THOSE PILOTS ON IT WHEN THEY TRIED TO UNDERMINE OUR EFFORTS BY PUTTING THEMSELVES FIRST. Some tried to justify themselves by hiding behind seniority or the contract. It didn’t wash.
Using the “seniority is everything” mantra is BS. Seniority gets you equipment, schedules and vacation. It doesn’t give you blanket authority to do whatever you feel like – you’re still expected to use some judgment. It doesn’t relieve you of your responsibility as a union member to support your leadership, negotiating committee and the pilot group’s collective efforts. Seniority doesn’t relieve you of applying common sense to your “schedule improvement” efforts just because the contract doesn’t specifically say “thou shalt not fly overtime at straight pay with furloughs pending and lower BLGs implemented”. Just because something’s legal in the contract, it doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. There’s nothing in our contract that specifically states your shouldn’t fly DPs, so do you fly them? Nothing in there about choosing to cross a picket line – should we add that so guys like our lurker friend know not to “exercise his seniority” and fly a nice trip during a strike? You don’t get to cherry pick the actions you feel are worthy and discard those that cause you some pain. Our union leadership has advocated not flying extra, the SIG publishes DPs we should not voluntarily fly, our contract has provisions to lower BLGs and someday in the future we may have to strike. All those sacrifices come with being on our team. We all were junior at some point and worked under whatever protections were/are available in the contract. Just because some senior pilots dodged that bullet and were junior during good times, doesn’t mean they get to pull that ladder up behind them now that they’re done with it.
To those pilots in ALPA who really feel they’re independent contractors, how about you just quit now. Save us the wondering and the disappointment and let us know now that we won’t be able to count on you in the event things really go south.
Thanks for the post -well put. I hope you won't mind if I throw in my .02 since I got shut out last night too.
A recently famous “lurker” dubbed himself and the rest of us “independent contractors” (IC) to Fedex. I won’t try to jump into the collective group’s head and try to understand why quite a few of our brethren who pay dues and call themselves ALPA members choose to operate as independent contractors. However, that, in a nutshell, is one of the major weaknesses I see to our union here at Fedex.
What’s the point of a union made up of pilots who view themselves as independent contractors? Why join if that’s your view?
A union is supposed to be about shared sacrifice and shared QOL and monetary gains, depending on the situation. Teamwork and unity equal the ability to collectively improve our situation – together. If everyone views themselves as independent contractors, we have neither. Perhaps the concept of teamwork, unity and shared sacrifice were not values that our “lurker”, Mr. Say4Dew4, was exposed to on his particular journey to his “dream job”. With personal advancement and eventual success landing your dream job as your main focus, why should we expect much out of such a person? If you’ve never been a part of a team that needs you to put your own best interests at the back of the line, I guess it’s not that difficult to understand how such attitudes develop. Somehow, most pilots at Fedex regardless of their background managed to “get it” and are true team players. So, maybe we’re just dealing with an isolated character flaw. Who knows.
I’m furloughed UAL and while not perfect, I will say that ALPA group had a pretty good handle on how to deal with independent contractors and provided guidance to the membership. They had a not-so-nice name for the independent contractors in their midst that had already shown their true colors – they even kept their names on a list for easy reference.
So, when is a personal sacrifice worthy of you making it? Obviously not when it involves just helping the junior pilots and not you directly. So, we can count on you as long as you see some personal benefit resulting from your actions? If it helps the junior and those to come after we start hiring again – screw ‘em. So, I guess you’d be a fan of a B-scale pay rate – at least now I know how something like that got put into a contract in the past. Just a bunch of independent contractors looking out for themselves and exercising seniority, right? Those guys on the B-scale will be senior someday and they’ll get all the benefits then.
Sometimes we (ALPA) will expect our members to sacrifice so that we can show our unity and force company actions like bringing negotiations to a conclusion or even stop taking actions we believe are improper.
What if we all decided to take the scheduled DH instead of deviating?
What if everyone protected min days off?
Never happen – we could never get everyone on board with that, right? That’s always the excuse. Well it’s probably right with a bunch of pilots who think they’re independent contractors. I’ve been a part of a pilot group that was willing to take those kinds of actions and by doing so got one of the best contracts in the industry just before 9/11. That wasn’t luck and it wasn’t due to the generous nature of UAL management. It was because as a group, we sacrificed, didn’t fly overtime, didn’t do favors for schedulers (even if it meant a good deal, tomorrow), we didn’t fly broken jets just to move the aircraft and we didn’t waive duty times. Most importantly, WE CALLED THOSE PILOTS ON IT WHEN THEY TRIED TO UNDERMINE OUR EFFORTS BY PUTTING THEMSELVES FIRST. Some tried to justify themselves by hiding behind seniority or the contract. It didn’t wash.
Using the “seniority is everything” mantra is BS. Seniority gets you equipment, schedules and vacation. It doesn’t give you blanket authority to do whatever you feel like – you’re still expected to use some judgment. It doesn’t relieve you of your responsibility as a union member to support your leadership, negotiating committee and the pilot group’s collective efforts. Seniority doesn’t relieve you of applying common sense to your “schedule improvement” efforts just because the contract doesn’t specifically say “thou shalt not fly overtime at straight pay with furloughs pending and lower BLGs implemented”. Just because something’s legal in the contract, it doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. There’s nothing in our contract that specifically states your shouldn’t fly DPs, so do you fly them? Nothing in there about choosing to cross a picket line – should we add that so guys like our lurker friend know not to “exercise his seniority” and fly a nice trip during a strike? You don’t get to cherry pick the actions you feel are worthy and discard those that cause you some pain. Our union leadership has advocated not flying extra, the SIG publishes DPs we should not voluntarily fly, our contract has provisions to lower BLGs and someday in the future we may have to strike. All those sacrifices come with being on our team. We all were junior at some point and worked under whatever protections were/are available in the contract. Just because some senior pilots dodged that bullet and were junior during good times, doesn’t mean they get to pull that ladder up behind them now that they’re done with it.
To those pilots in ALPA who really feel they’re independent contractors, how about you just quit now. Save us the wondering and the disappointment and let us know now that we won’t be able to count on you in the event things really go south.
01-25-2009, 09:56 AM
#3
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Facing forward and senior
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
Salty,
Thanks for the post -well put. I hope you won't mind if I throw in my .02 since I got shut out last night too.
Thanks for the post -well put. I hope you won't mind if I throw in my .02 since I got shut out last night too.
If I could I would like to make a comparison of our Union, and more specifically the FedEx pilots to that of a large hospital. I think of our master seniority list like a large hospital. In a hospital you have secretaries, RN's, Radiologists, Surgeons all working collectively for the patient's best interests. Here we have a a collection of junior to senior pilots flying different aircraft working collectively to deliver a safe operation and quality customer satisfaction. In the hospital, the spectrum from secretary to surgeon is wide and varied regarding compensation, schedule, and benefits. If the hospital were overstaffed, you wouldn't expect the surgeons to take a paycut to save the reduction in force the hospital needed to employ. Here asking a senior pilot to not fly carryover/make-up would be a similar request.
ALPA is a very unique bird. During contract talks, should they escalate to a legal work action, we come together as one in full support of our negotiating committee. During more benign times though, we are all individual contractors to a point, enjoying our choices to be senior, or perhaps lamenting a failed strategy to upgrade and being locked into the bottom of a particular a/c or seat position. I have a bud that took the left seat of the Bus on the postal bid. At the time he was pumped to get in the left seat. Now he is complaining about flying A-reserve for less than what I am making. It's all about CHOICES.
Your seniority guarantees you the right to make choices. I do not begrudge the senior guy for flying past 60, or having 170 hour month. Their seniority affords him the RIGHT to MAKE A CHOICE. So long as during contract talks we collectively do what the Union asks of us, including the senior guys, then I would remind us all that we are not engaged in a work action against the company. I believe that they inappropriately invoked 4A2B. If we are overmanned, and I believe we are, then we should furlough. It's not personal and I know it does suck. But it's a reality associated with an airline job. It's a reality that we ALL sign on for when we accept employment in a cockpit that is connected to a seniority list.
Now, about Unions. Fellas, we aren't the UAW. We aren't the United Food and Commercial Workers. We are more like the NFL Players association, or the NBA Players association. We are highly paid, and highly skilled workers. We bring a unique skill-set to the table that we have cultivated through years of military service (no bashing! just respect), or hours of civilian flying. You can't expect to present a culture of the blue collar union member in a very white collar environment. When NFL teams make the final cut to 52 players or cut a player during the year the skill players that have contracts aren't asked to take a cut in pay are they?
In my opinion, if the company is overmanned then furlough, get it over with and get back to business. Why in the world we should all take financial hits to offset a manning problem is beyond me. It's not personal guys, it's business. FedEx runs a business and has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. Individually we run our own little business entities and have fiduciary responsibilities to our families.
Legal work stoppage, voted in by the membership and I am on board. Hostages taken illegally for whatever reason, sign me up to help. But overmanning as a result of poor-planning coupled with a tanked economy, I say no.
Thanks in advance for positing insightful points of view. That is what I hoped to accomplish earlier.
01-25-2009, 10:03 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
I've got to admit, under normal circumstances, I'm not going to take the scheduled DH even if we wind up furloughing.
I do spend every penny of my deviation bank. If I've got extra, I save the miles on my car by taking a limo. If I'm near the parking $$ limit, then I take a limo.
I don't do extra weeks of work. Like spending time with the family too much to chase the dollar.
If I'm lucky enough to swap trips I'd have to J/S to/from for DH trips, then I don't sweat how the pay works out. This month, the CH's went up a bit but I didn't go looking for a trip to drop to keep the BLG level.
And Salty, much as I hate to, have to say the PM might not have gone through due to the min participation. Great post though
I do spend every penny of my deviation bank. If I've got extra, I save the miles on my car by taking a limo. If I'm near the parking $$ limit, then I take a limo.
I don't do extra weeks of work. Like spending time with the family too much to chase the dollar.
If I'm lucky enough to swap trips I'd have to J/S to/from for DH trips, then I don't sweat how the pay works out. This month, the CH's went up a bit but I didn't go looking for a trip to drop to keep the BLG level.
And Salty, much as I hate to, have to say the PM might not have gone through due to the min participation. Great post though
01-25-2009, 10:09 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Originally Posted by say4dew4
...I believe that they inappropriately invoked 4A2B. If we are overmanned, and I believe we are, then we should furlough...
Last edited by Busboy; 01-25-2009 at 10:15 AM.
01-25-2009, 10:12 AM
#6
APC co-founder
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by kronan
... the PM might not have gone through due to the min participation. Great post though
ADMIN Note: New users do not have PM permission until reaching 3 posts in any public forum. This is not punitive, but is a SPAM prevention measure.
Great thread - thanks all
01-25-2009, 10:16 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
Originally Posted by HSLD
ADMIN Note: New users do not have PM permission until reaching 3 posts in any public forum. This is not punitive, but is a SPAM prevention measure.
Great thread - thanks all
Great thread - thanks all
01-25-2009, 10:21 AM
#8
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Facing forward and senior
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by Busboy
So, let me ask you: Exactly, how would the company appropriately invoke 4.A.2.b, if we are overmanned, without lowering BLGs?
BLG's are immaterial to this argument. So, if I were to make an accurate observation of 4A2B it would go like this:
1. Announcement that we are needing to furlough do to overmanning.
2. Announcement that MBPG is now effectively lowered to 48/60
3. Furlough
4. Snap-back of MBPG to normal levels
5. BLG's never change. That's where I think the company is wrong.
There is no reason to extract monies from the pilots to furlough. BLG is not even referred to in 4A2B. They are doing this to gain an economic advantage during a market downturn by exploiting a loophole in the contract.
It is our Unions fault for the lack of oversight concerning 4A2B.
Hope that answers your question as to my interpretation of 4A2B
01-25-2009, 10:22 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
S4D4,
First, I don't think you are as senior as you make your self out to be. If you were furloughed after 9/11, Fedex wasn't hiring guys on furlough at that time, so my guess is you are around a 2003/4 hire. If that is the case and we do furlough and realign you would be junior in any right seat and maybe only able to hold a back seat. How would that effect your pay at 48hr blg. I know you assume that blgs would snap back, but have you read the lec/block messages? The mec believes that blg's would stay at 48 until the last guy is brought back to the line. As a guy who is probably 600+ numbers senior to you, I do support not flying extra, protecting min days off, and "saving Rick." Sorry to hear about your past experiences with furlough, but if you were Rick, would you feel the same way or appreciate a little shared sacrifice.
First, I don't think you are as senior as you make your self out to be. If you were furloughed after 9/11, Fedex wasn't hiring guys on furlough at that time, so my guess is you are around a 2003/4 hire. If that is the case and we do furlough and realign you would be junior in any right seat and maybe only able to hold a back seat. How would that effect your pay at 48hr blg. I know you assume that blgs would snap back, but have you read the lec/block messages? The mec believes that blg's would stay at 48 until the last guy is brought back to the line. As a guy who is probably 600+ numbers senior to you, I do support not flying extra, protecting min days off, and "saving Rick." Sorry to hear about your past experiences with furlough, but if you were Rick, would you feel the same way or appreciate a little shared sacrifice.
01-25-2009, 10:26 AM
#10
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Facing forward and senior
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by pinseeker
S4D4,
First, I don't think you are as senior as you make your self out to be. If you were furloughed after 9/11, Fedex wasn't hiring guys on furlough at that time, so my guess is you are around a 2003/4 hire. If that is the case and we do furlough and realign you would be junior in any right seat and maybe only able to hold a back seat. How would that effect your pay at 48hr blg. I know you assume that blgs would snap back, but have you read the lec/block messages? The mec believes that blg's would stay at 48 until the last guy is brought back to the line. As a guy who is probably 600+ numbers senior to you, I do support not flying extra, protecting min days off, and "saving Rick." Sorry to hear about your past experiences with furlough, but if you were Rick, would you feel the same way or appreciate a little shared sacrifice.
First, I don't think you are as senior as you make your self out to be. If you were furloughed after 9/11, Fedex wasn't hiring guys on furlough at that time, so my guess is you are around a 2003/4 hire. If that is the case and we do furlough and realign you would be junior in any right seat and maybe only able to hold a back seat. How would that effect your pay at 48hr blg. I know you assume that blgs would snap back, but have you read the lec/block messages? The mec believes that blg's would stay at 48 until the last guy is brought back to the line. As a guy who is probably 600+ numbers senior to you, I do support not flying extra, protecting min days off, and "saving Rick." Sorry to hear about your past experiences with furlough, but if you were Rick, would you feel the same way or appreciate a little shared sacrifice.
I sincerely think that this is going to be a thorn in the side of the grievance filed. It is very clear that 4A2B only refers to MBPG not BLG. So if we furlough, BLG's can be wherever the company want's to put them.
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